Sowing legumes with winter cereals

[Hartwig]

I would like to try and mix some either redclover or lucerne with my winter cereals-drilling this autumn, preferrably with winter barley.
Idea is to have a double-crop, either combine the barley and chop all straw if the legume is not so much or stripper header off the barley and mow and bale the straw with the legume in it if the legume is too thick for combining the cereal with cutterbar.
Then let the legume grow for fattening lambs on it in late summer/autumn and disc-drill the next winter cereal (wheat) into it, maybe let some sheep lightly graze it further on in the autumn and then knock back the legume in the spring with a herbicide.
Everything direct-drilled of course.

Can anybody give me advice on what to take care about, seed rates and most scary for me : which herbicide options do I have this autumn / next spring with a clover or lucerne growing in the cereal crop ??
And what herbicide and rate is needed if I have to suppress (not kill !) the legume next spring if neccessary ? As far as I`ve heard, redclover would be better as lucerne can be hard to get rid of, especially without cultivation !?

 

[farmerm]

I like the concept but it sounds challenging. You really don't have many Autumn herbicide options. You really need GM to provide vareties both glyphosate tolerant and a legume that has a easily controled growth habit.

You can rely on herbicides to kill legumes you want to suppress and suppress ones you want to kill.. Generally a fine line between no effect, suppression and kill. The same rate in 2 different seasons can give very different results.

The legumes will unlikely supply the cereal with a conventional level of N but applying bagged N will probably stuff the legumes?

Been on organic farms that establish clover by overseeing growing cereal in spring, but have not seen anyone overseeding a growing legume with a cereal crop..

 

[hendrebc]

Why not try a lower growing clover so it wont be quite so important to supress it with a herbicide? White clover maybe?

 

[Hartwig]

I got told that redclover is like rocket fuel for fattening lambs on.
And I guess more vigorous, so better for suppressing weeds and making the field clean over late summer/autumn !?

Supressing it with herbicide is only last choice, I`m not too worried about it as it will be supressed by N-fertilizer and harvest with stripper header will cope with a lot of it I hope.

 

[hendrebc]

It certainly is good stuff for fattening lambs on i dont know how it would compare to a straight white clover though cereals might be able to compete better with a white clover too. Very interesting thing to try. @Kiwi Pete @Farmer Roy @TelesnaAg @CornishTone this will interest you

 

[Kiwi Pete]

A white clover could be a better weed mat due to its prostrate growth habit - you can keep drilling through it once established, until you get sick of it!

Or white and red clover, come to that, how long and strong are your winters?

 

[hendrebc]

What is sub clover? Im guessing its low growing being called sub? I havent seen it in any seed catalogues here i dont think dont know much about it apart from the name

 

[TelesnaAg]

Id be worried that by the time you harvest the clovers would have gone a fair way past there best value point.

Do you plan to sow in autumn with cereal or spread into crop in spring?

Balansa will be well past its useful date, subs / whites maybe...red clover would be the best fit IMO if it can out live the winter, seed is expensive in oz, not sure of over there?

If you can stripper head the grain and then either graze or cut straw and clover together it would make a useful winter feed. sheep would leave the straw i would think - cattle may take the lot.

Ant...

 

[ollie989898]

Triticale and red clover could work but it will be weedy.

 

[Hartwig]

Winters here can be anything.....
Very rarely no real frost and very rarely 4 month of frost down to -20°C and snow.
Mostly a few weeks of frost in Jan./Feb. maybe down to -10°C and also a bit of snowcover.
You`ll never know before.

White clover will stay further down, so might be easier to handle. Will it be as good for fattening lambs ??
Might be good for the ewes as well as no hormones in it like in red clover !? So easier to manage as no worries about choice of field for which group ?

 

[TelesnaAg]

What sowing spacing you on?

My worry with white would be the cereal crop shading it to much, red will stand up a bit - there are low estrogen varities available now...plus its a culmative affect...

If you get decent summer rains - when the crop drops its leaves down you could broadcast some in - ive played with barley and lucerne and red clover - takes a bit of trial work to find best option for your area...

would a barrasica crop even suit? broadcasted in late spring?

Ant..

 

[organicguy]

I am not convinced Red clover will survive your winter if autumn sown? although I'm happy to be told otherwise. The biggest problem with RC even when spring undersown is it growing up level with the crop in a damp summer,OK for whole crop but difficult for grain.Yellow trefoil is extensively used in Horticulture for undersowing veg as it is tolerant of shade and grows away well.
I think you need to do some trials and report back.
I have seen organic autumn sown crops of beans, peas, triticale, clovers, vetches and grass all sown together and taken through to grain harvest leaving a grass ley but they have a mild winter and a hot dry summer so it all dies off to harvest, then the ley takes off when it rains.

 

[Hartwig]

Just came across a nearly forgotten trial: at the end of march, just before the last snowfall, I spread by hand small patches with different clovers on my oilseed-rape.
Only one clover survived with a thin stand, so not really successfull - but that method should been very effective worldwide I was told......

Any experiences if that would be a foolproof way to establish clovers in winter-cereals, by just spreading it on the last frost and let it with thawing sink in the soil for later germination ?? If so what seedrates and which clovers ??

 

[hendrebc]

@Kevtherev has tried it but I haven't heard what came of it. I think @Blaithin does it in Canada?

 

[Blaithin]

Frost seeding?

I didn’t get the seed in time to do it this spring but it does work. Germination can run 1/4 to 1/2 so you generally want to seed twice as much. Some people cast in fall, some do it on top of snow, some wait for the last couple of frosts. Don’t know of any particular way that is more effective. I think what I have is red clover but I’ll double check tomorrow