Sumo DTS help please!

[Bignor Farmer]

We had a new Sumo DTS toolbar/front hopper this spring which has had quite a few issues and Sumo have been very good at sorting them out so far.

All of our spring crops had massive 20m misses/boxes on the “ins” put down to surging oil flow to the fan and a lots of air leaks on the pressurised front tank. The tank lid has been modified, holes sealed and the fan is now running perfectly but now all my winter OSR and cover crops are showing the same thing.

Sumo are saying that it is relatively normal on toolbars or long trailed drills and we need to tap the metering system precharge every time we drop into work to load the metering auger sufficiently to start off. They say that most operators are happily doing this and it solves the problem. I say it is archaic to do that and clearly there is more air pressure on the metering system exit than pressure in the tank causing poor seed flow until the metering system auger is turning sufficiently fast to load it up.

Any user experiences and comments appreciated. We’re going to start on cereals next week and I don’t want the farm to look a mess like it did in the spring!

Picture of spring linseed to highlight the issue

 

[clbarclay]

What control system do they have on metering and how does it trigger starting and stopping metering when you raise and lower?

If it uses a mechanical switch on the linkage, some metering systems can use single or pair of switches to start metering. With a pair it can start metering as soon as the linkage starts to lower, rather once the toolbar is down on the ground.

 

[Wombat]

What control system do they have on metering and how does it trigger starting and stopping metering when you raise and lower?

If it uses a mechanical switch on the linkage, some metering systems can use single or pair of switches to start metering. With a pair it can start metering as soon as the linkage starts to lower, rather once the toolbar is down on the ground.

I would suspect it’s in this, I have an old df1 hopper on front linkage with its own metering wheel and I have to drop that as the hopper crosses the mark to get seed to go be at the back as the tool bar drops in

 

[Bignor Farmer]

What control system do they have on metering and how does it trigger starting and stopping metering when you raise and lower?

If it uses a mechanical switch on the linkage, some metering systems can use single or pair of switches to start metering. With a pair it can start metering as soon as the linkage starts to lower, rather once the toolbar is down on the ground.

We’re running off the tractor isobus, starts and stops metering seed about 1 second after we flick the sequence button in the cab.
The issue is between the airflow, metering system and pressurised hopper.

 

[Bignor Farmer]

I would suspect it’s in this, I have an old df1 hopper on front linkage with its own metering wheel and I have to drop that as the hopper crosses the mark to get seed to go be at the back as the tool bar drops in

We’re dropping into work with nearly 10m of overlap, metering system is turning fine, it’s an airflow issue

 

[goodevans]

Can you alter the timings or just get used to flicking switch quicker

 

[Bignor Farmer]

Can you alter the timings or just get used to flicking switch quicker

It only takes seed about 3 seconds to get from the metering system to the coulters when we test it in the yard.
It takes about 30m to consistently come out in the field.
We seem to have air circulating through the metering auger and back into the tank taking seed with it. This flow is broken when the metering auger is rotating sufficiently fast that it is full of seed hence why manually pressing the prime button works, it starts the metering turning quickly.

 

[Hampton]

We had a new Sumo DTS toolbar/front hopper this spring which has had quite a few issues and Sumo have been very good at sorting them out so far.

All of our spring crops had massive 20m misses/boxes on the “ins” put down to surging oil flow to the fan and a lots of air leaks on the pressurised front tank. The tank lid has been modified, holes sealed and the fan is now running perfectly but now all my winter OSR and cover crops are showing the same thing.

Sumo are saying that it is relatively normal on toolbars or long trailed drills and we need to tap the metering system precharge every time we drop into work to load the metering auger sufficiently to start off. They say that most operators are happily doing this and it solves the problem. I say it is archaic to do that and clearly there is more air pressure on the metering system exit than pressure in the tank causing poor seed flow until the metering system auger is turning sufficiently fast to load it up.

Any user experiences and comments appreciated. We’re going to start on cereals next week and I don’t want the farm to look a mess like it did in the spring!

Picture of spring linseed to highlight the issue
View attachment 1136392View attachment 1136393

20m is a long way, if it was a bit I’d just say go an extra time round the headland

 

[Alistair Nelson]

Sadly they are talking total and utter bull**** and don't let them off the hook that easily. Having run front tanks for 20+ years accord based and run a pressurised horsch system tank for the last 4, and sold in a previous life no end of front tanks. A pressurised hopper arrangement once properly sealed is night and day better than an old style venturi system as you can generate greater air pressure in the transfer pipes

You need a lot more lead than you think though both turning on and off abit like shooting high partridges. is the signal for on and off coming off the rear linkage up and down or off the GPS? put some wheat in and go and have a play and open the rear window slightly and listen for the rattle of the grain both as you drop in and as you lift up and you'll be amazed how long in time it takes to start rattling into the head or stop rattling. Once the tank etc are all sealed and the fan is running smoothly and consistently it's not an air thing to get going. once your properly sealed you only run into problems when wanting to put high rates of seed on at fast speed and eventually you run out of air as the seed to air pressure ratio gets too high.

The only other limiting air factor is if you can't get rid of the air at the coulter generating back pressure are the outlet is buried in the ground but this would be highly unlikely drilling rape! if you think its an issue get some of those rubber exhaust socks that claydon and weaving use just above there coulters.

Hope some of this makes sense

Alistair

 

[cosmagedon]

My DIY front hopper takes 5 or 6s to go front to back in cereals, I have sometimes had issues with back pressure in the tank when I'm down to the last few Kgs of seed in the tank, you can see that on the camera with bits of dust puffing up.

I'm sure there's a setting in the RDS that you can 'boost' as soon as the trigger is activated rather than just turn the metering on to your current speed.

You could also set your linkage drop rate slow then drop the drill a bit earlier, that combined with the boost function would possibly sort it. However it all sounds like it's masking a bigger issue

 

[Bignor Farmer]

My DIY front hopper takes 5 or 6s to go front to back in cereals, I have sometimes had issues with back pressure in the tank when I'm down to the last few Kgs of seed in the tank, you can see that on the camera with bits of dust puffing up.

I'm sure there's a setting in the RDS that you can 'boost' as soon as the trigger is activated rather than just turn the metering on to your current speed.

You could also set your linkage drop rate slow then drop the drill a bit earlier, that combined with the boost function would possibly sort it. However it all sounds like it's masking a bigger issue

Thank you both. It looks like we’re getting back pressure, definitely worse with an empty hopper.
It’s interesting that you say 5 or 6 seconds for cereals, ours is definitely much quicker than that so presumably our air flow/pressure is much higher. We only have 12 outlets as well so perhaps some socks on the pipes and a much lower fan speed.

 

[Alistair Nelson]

Thank you both. It looks like we’re getting back pressure, definitely worse with an empty hopper.
It’s interesting that you say 5 or 6 seconds for cereals, ours is definitely much quicker than that so presumably our air flow/pressure is much higher. We only have 12 outlets as well so perhaps some socks on the pipes and a much lower fan speed.

If it is worse with an empty hopper they haven't got the pressure balance into the hopper correct also. if you're on 12 outlets definitely get some socks or some method of loosing air. How is the metering device activated off the rear linkage up/down signal or gps artificial headland?

 

[Bignor Farmer]

If it is worse with an empty hopper they haven't got the pressure balance into the hopper correct also. if you're on 12 outlets definitely get some socks or some method of loosing air. How is the metering device activated off the rear linkage up/down signal or gps artificial headland?

We’re still not convinced by the seal around the tank lid, going to find a way of getting some smoke inside to see what’s happening. There are also bits of OSR escaping and landing on the frame from somewhere as well.
Metering system is activated by the tractor sequence switch and is very quick and consistent. We had trouble with the original external switch so got rid of that.

 

[Alistair Nelson]

We’re still not convinced by the seal around the tank lid, going to find a way of getting some smoke inside to see what’s happening. There are also bits of OSR escaping and landing on the frame from somewhere as well.
Metering system is activated by the tractor sequence switch and is very quick and consistent. We had trouble with the original external switch so got rid of that.

Good idea with a smoke test because if it isn't sealed well your buggered also if there isn't enough or too much air pushing the grain out the tank your also buggered so it is a balancing act and how much air is required in the tank for a front tank rig with the longer transfer therefore greater back pressure will be different to the same width trailed machine. and this lack of outlets due to banding at the end of the line compared to a conventional coulter arrangement again won't be helping.

I'm not familiar with the auger metering on the sumo compared to the more conventional rotor you don't think some seed is sliding back down the auger whilst its stopped and your turning round do you meaning that every time you start off the auger has to reprime itself if that makes sense all adding to the lag. even if only half a sencond but they all add up to creat a few meters of missed drilling

Don't worry I am sure the sequence is quick and consistent but it takes time even with a sealed system which is faster for the seed to get from one end to the other you can speed it up by making the outlets better but you still need that period of time as I say abit like shooting partridges and so from pressing the sequence button to the linkage going down and seed arriving at the coulter bottom as I say just have a play with there back or side window open and you will here the rattle of the seed. How much overrun are you getting at the outward headland turns.

 

[Bignor Farmer]

Just an update in case anyone reads this thread in the future!

We put a coloured smoke grenade in the tank and found that the tank lid was still leaking. It wasn’t very much but obviously enough air flow to disrupt a few grams of OSR seed.

The seal is a neoprene strip with a square profile that has to bend around 90 degree corners which crushes/bunches up the seal and is where most of the air was leaking. Quite a poor design, it could easily have rounded corners and I might remake ours in the winter if our repair doesn’t look like it will hold.

We put in a new seal and the filled the corners and gaps with silicone. We also slackened off the tank lid to put a more even pressure around the seal.

We put another smoke grenade in the tank and I think it’s completely air tight now. We then put a bag of grass seed in the tank and a very low simulated speed with a very high fan speed and couldn’t get it to misbehave in the workshop so hopefully we’ve got it sorted now

Incidentally, it does only take about 3.5 seconds for the seed to reach the openers with a normal fan speed.

 

[alomy75]

I would suspect it’s in this, I have an old df1 hopper on front linkage with its own metering wheel and I have to drop that as the hopper crosses the mark to get seed to go be at the back as the tool bar drops in

I’ve just bought a DF1 same as yours; I’m keen to keep it all basic and reliable; how do you do corners with the time needed to get the seed to the toolbar? Just go slowly? I’ve never had a front hopper before…

 

[Phil P]

I’ve just bought a DF1 same as yours; I’m keen to keep it all basic and reliable; how do you do corners with the time needed to get the seed to the toolbar? Just go slowly? I’ve never had a front hopper before…

You just have to go slow as you’re setting off out of a corner but with a mechanical drive you’ll always get a missed bit.
Electric drive with a pre start function is the way forward, you can sow right into the corner and don’t have to lift up and back up if you need to stop.
I put an RDS Artemis on my df1, very accurate and much quicker to calibrate as well.

 

[alomy75]

You just have to go slow as you’re setting off out of a corner but with a mechanical drive you’ll always get a missed bit.
Electric drive with a pre start function is the way forward, you can sow right into the corner and don’t have to lift up and back up if you need to stop.
I put an RDS Artemis on my df1, very accurate and much quicker to calibrate as well.
View attachment 1138576

Yes you’re quite right; I was just hoping to keep this (my emergency and wet weather drill) as simple as possible after my muller screen on my main drill was at David kings for over a month being repaired earlier this year…could have been horrific if it happened now. Plus talking to a friend the cost of retrofit Artemis is getting very costly now…

 

[Wombat]

Yes you’re quite right; I was just hoping to keep this (my emergency and wet weather drill) as simple as possible after my muller screen on my main drill was at David kings for over a month being repaired earlier this year…could have been horrific if it happened now. Plus talking to a friend the cost of retrofit Artemis is getting very costly now…

For me, as you have to drop the wheel there is always a bit of a lag, how I do corners is to back into the hedge as far as possible litterally stick the following harrow in the hedge drop the wheel, then go slow out the corner. (i am quite lucky as a lot of fields have grass margins). If you crawl out the corners you can hear the seed start to go past the cab in the pipes then when you know its flowing speed up. Also when going into corners, i tend to over lap a bit.