Sustainable Agriculture & Reduced inputs

[delilah]

Thanks for the nudge...

Registrations now open (ie you can buy tickets online). It's a two day event, both days catering for both no-till arable and regenerative livestock farmers. We've got Greg Judy to talk about mob-grazing, Ademir Calegari on cover crops (and there aren't many who know more on this subject), we've got don'tknowanything and Clive, Jake Freestone and Joel Williams, the Small Robot Company and Graham Edwards, and several forum discussions on various subjects...ie something for everybody. Possibly the most exciting in terms of this thread is Dan Kittredge from the States.

There's also 12 no-till drills a-drilling, lots of interesting people to chat too, good food to eat and some no-till potatoes to look at and lots of other things which I can't think of right now... www.groundswellag.com

Could I ask, have the Soil Association shown any interest in/ been approached to attend ? (can't see them on the exhibitor list). As a long standing member of the SA this looks to be just the sort of event they should be having a presence at, both to promote organic principles to a more mainstream audience and to learn from that wider audience where they should maybe moderate some of their more dogmatic rules.
Any feedback on this appreciated. We are all in it together,and I would be disappointed if any politics has got in the way of collaboration.

 

[hendrebc]

View attachment 656066

View attachment 656068
Bit of clover from my frost seeding experiment on the snow [emoji301]️

I wanted to try that but didnt think i could have got hold of any seed fast enough to do it

 

[Ukjay]

the ones near the back will be fine and have a nice soft landing

Not if the bottom is a river

 

[Doc]

I’m afraid my impression of the soil association is nothing but dogma. Illogical dogma at that particularly for livestock enterprises.

 

[SilliamWhale]

I’m afraid my impression of the soil association is nothing but dogma. Illogical dogma at that particularly for livestock enterprises.

Your either with them or against them in their world...

 

[CornishTone]

I’m afraid my impression of the soil association is nothing but dogma. Illogical dogma at that particularly for livestock enterprises.

As far as I can see the SA have strangled any hope of innovative and creative thought out of the organic sector and turned their members into followers of protocols who have to ask permission to wipe their own ass. It’s their way or the highway!

Utterly convinced of their own superiority, the SA wouldn’t know sustainable (financial, environmental or genetic) agriculture if it bit them on the backside. They are simply a marketing company who are trying to railroad their way into every aspect of food production to further their influence on the industry, ultimately pitting farmer against farmer and forcing more divisions in the industry. Makes me wild!

They sit just below the RSPB in terms of how much I detest them!

 

[martian]

Could I ask, have the Soil Association shown any interest in/ been approached to attend ? (can't see them on the exhibitor list). As a long standing member of the SA this looks to be just the sort of event they should be having a presence at, both to promote organic principles to a more mainstream audience and to learn from that wider audience where they should maybe moderate some of their more dogmatic rules.
Any feedback on this appreciated. We are all in it together,and I would be disappointed if any politics has got in the way of collaboration.

We're still sorting out speakers and exhibitors etc, so the list on the website isn't definitive. We had one or two SA and OF&G people last year on forums or panels (and, sweetly, I was asked to speak on a panel at the organic combinable crops day so it goes both ways). I think the SA are realising that they're in danger of turning into dinosaurs, hence the Innovative Farmers project which welcomes all innovative farmers under its umbrella (I'm hoping we'll have their presence at Groundswell at least).

Dan Kittredge is an organic farmer, he's our keynote speaker this year. He will happily tell you that a lot of organic, or bio-dynamic or whatever, food is no better than non-organic...it's all about labels and rules. His transformative breakthrough is a gizmo which can read the real quality of foodstuffs. If I was on the board of the SA, or a supermarket come to that, I'd be pretty nervous about this as, suddenly, the consumer would have real power to decide what to buy and not worry about labels.

The long and the short of it is that we farmers need healthy soil, everything else follows from that.

 

[Samcowman]

The next 30 years will cost less and produce more, in terms of value- probably much less milk but I am thinking herb finished venison and different types of farming - people

Plenty of places to screw for milk protein before the McKenzie country needs centre pivot irrigation and monoculture

Good thing this is a positive thread

One thing that is always going to be an abundance of in these areas are eco-tourists and researchers, beds and a tour can be lucrative if you have an angle and a message not that I would know

Been having think about this whilst driving back from fairlie today. Do you think due to the irrigation the soil on the plains will be improving more compared to the dry land farming that went before it despite it being a lot of monoculture under the pivots.
My thoughts are there will be more organic matter build up in the soils and thus sequestering more carbon but they could be being depleted of some elements if the incorrect fert is being used to replace these trace elements.
So would the best way to be have multi species pasture under irrigation and improve the soils even faster??

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

As far as I can see the SA have strangled any hope of innovative and creative thought out of the organic sector and turned their members into followers of protocols who have to ask permission to wipe their own ass. It’s their way or the highway!

Utterly convinced of their own superiority, the SA wouldn’t know sustainable (financial, environmental or genetic) agriculture if it bit them on the backside. They are simply a marketing company who are trying to railroad their way into every aspect of food production to further their influence on the industry, ultimately pitting farmer against farmer and forcing more divisions in the industry. Makes me wild!

They sit just below the RSPB in terms of how much I detest them!

That's a "not just now" then

Spot on though

 

[Henarar]

As far as I can see the SA have strangled any hope of innovative and creative thought out of the organic sector and turned their members into followers of protocols who have to ask permission to wipe their own ass. It’s their way or the highway!

Utterly convinced of their own superiority, the SA wouldn’t know sustainable (financial, environmental or genetic) agriculture if it bit them on the backside. They are simply a marketing company who are trying to railroad their way into every aspect of food production to further their influence on the industry, ultimately pitting farmer against farmer and forcing more divisions in the industry. Makes me wild!

They sit just below the RSPB in terms of how much I detest them!

On your Christmas card list then tone ?

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Been having think about this whilst driving back from fairlie today. Do you think due to the irrigation the soil on the plains will be improving more compared to the dry land farming that went before it despite it being a lot of monoculture under the pivots.
My thoughts are there will be more organic matter build up in the soils and thus sequestering more carbon but they could be being depleted of some elements if the incorrect fert is being used to replace these trace elements.
So would the best way to be have multi species pasture under irrigation and improve the soils even faster??

An interesting one!
Obviously the much boosted growth rates under irrigation would mean greater soil activity is likely, but due to the "safety" then it is likely that farm management will run a much less regenerative approach than they would be without?
That is, keeping lower than natural covers for summer, not allowing the grass to seed, weaseling the maximum permitted soluble fert on etc etc could actually mean far less carbon storage than otherwise, due to shallower rooting and poorer 'depth of activity': with cultivation, pans, and already shallow alluvial soils, they are effectively farming the top 4 inches and not 4 feet deep like a dryland farmer worth his salt.

So it is entirely possible they could be doing much worse, not to mention leaching and overstocking etc which means only one thing - not futureproof.

They seem to be waiting to be told, and fighting what they are being told, a familiar pattern

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

An interesting one!
Obviously the much boosted growth rates under irrigation would mean greater soil activity is likely, but due to the "safety" then it is likely that farm management will run a much less regenerative approach than they would be without?
That is, keeping lower than natural covers for summer, not allowing the grass to seed, weaseling the maximum permitted soluble fert on etc etc could actually mean far less carbon storage than otherwise, due to shallower rooting and poorer 'depth of activity': with cultivation, pans, and already shallow alluvial soils, they are effectively farming the top 4 inches and not 4 feet deep like a dryland farmer worth his salt.

So it is entirely possible they could be doing much worse, not to mention leaching and overstocking etc which means only one thing - not futureproof.

They seem to be waiting to be told, and fighting what they are being told, a familiar pattern

Who could you possible be referring to Pete

 

[CornishTone]

On your Christmas card list then tone ?

A small token from my cats litter tray in a Christmassy envelope would be the very embodiment of my feelings towards them![emoji6]

 

[Henarar]

A small token from my cats litter tray in a Christmassy envelope would be the very embodiment of my feelings towards them![emoji6]

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Who could you possible be referring to Pete

Pretty much all chemical abusers, living in their little bubble of hope that the nasty misinformed rule-makers that are out to break up their festival, won't.

That their consumers won't worry about how their food was grown... and just buy it, never mind it took 3 litres of fuel per kg of meat to arrive on their plate.

The undeniable fact is, food can be produced with a far greater ratio of live (as opposed to stored) solar energy than it does, and everyone on the planet would benefit if we helped do it together

That's why I haven't got a Biogro sign on the gate here, what a load of reductionism in one book, which goes against my principles, completely.

Anything goes here. My seaweed and apples and woodchips benefit not a jot if they happened to be certified organic or not
They smell fairly organic by the time I'm done with 'em

 

[The Ruminant]

His transformative breakthrough is a gizmo which can read the real quality of foodstuffs. If I was on the board of the SA, or a supermarket come to that, I'd be pretty nervous about this as, suddenly, the consumer would have real power to decide what to buy and not worry about labels.

Now that sounds like a game-changer. How interesting.
A measure for how nutrient-dense foods are

 

[T Bourne]

Tar pit - I like that. I tend to think of it as being on a treadmill & unable to get off . . .
That need for regular cash flow to cover payments for land, machinery, inputs, overdraft etc etc is probably at the fore front of most farmers thinking here
What you described above is very similar here

On a very individual level here on my own farm, it is VERY dry. Drier than I've experienced before. While a large part of my drive for moving to a more regenerative system is to make it more resilient to weather extremes / climate change & to provide a degree of risk management, both physically & financially, I know that when / if we get sufficient rainfall, then I am going to be under a lot of pressure ( if I'm still here ) to plant every single sq m to an immediate cash crop.
I have land here which is bare ( after cutworms destroyed a crop ) & I have been wanting to plant a cover crop ( purely for groundcover / biology reasons ) into it for nearly a year now. There hasn't even been enough moisture for weeds to germinate, let alone plant a cover . . .
The plan is to have about a third summer crop, a third winter crop & a third cover crop ( maybe strip grazed with cattle ). However, by the time we finally do get some moisture ( this heVy black soil, when it is dry it is DRY. Takes a LOT of water to wet it again. We are going to need an extrodinary weather event to happen to get a winter crop planted this year. We really need a flood, but can't see that happening ) the requirement for quick cash is going to be the number one priority, so I think everything will just be planted into whatever we can plant at that time of year

I think what I'm trying to say is, I believe many growers here want to head down a regenerative path & there is a lot of interest in it, but the physical & financial barriers, along with the mental barriers of their own paradigms, do make it very challenging. As @Blaithin highlighted above.

Interestingly, the impetus for Colin Seis & his methods was financial difficulty - he had a fire or something & was just about busted arse, he couldn't afford to farm "properly" so just did what he could . . .

No one ever said it was easy

Gabe Brown was in a similar situation after hail and drought ruined his crops, I think 5 years in a row. Difficult situation to be in, I hope things start to look up for you Roy.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Pretty much all chemical abusers, living in their little bubble of hope that the nasty misinformed rule-makers that are out to break up their festival, won't.

That their consumers won't worry about how their food was grown... and just buy it, never mind it took 3 litres of fuel per kg of meat to arrive on their plate.

The undeniable fact is, food can be produced with a far greater ratio of live (as opposed to stored) solar energy than it does, and everyone on the planet would benefit if we helped do it together

That's why I haven't got a Biogro sign on the gate here, what a load of reductionism in one book, which goes against my principles, completely.

Anything goes here. My seaweed and apples and woodchips benefit not a jot if they happened to be certified organic or not
They smell fairly organic by the time I'm done with 'em

I did look into Organic standards after college with a view to us going that way, we've always been low fertiliser users anyway. The fact you could (then at least) be "Organic" and feed a proportion of non-organic certified cereals but had to use certified organic straw for 100% of your bedding was indicative of how irrational their ethos was.

I wonder if they were behind some of the Red Tractor standards?

 

[SilliamWhale]

Now that sounds like a game-changer. How interesting.
A measure for how nutrient-dense foods are

Its not a brix refractometer is it?

 

[SilliamWhale]

I did look into Organic standards after college with a view to us going that way, we've always been low fertiliser users anyway. The fact you could (then at least) be "Organic" and feed a proportion of non-organic certified cereals but had to use certified organic straw for 100% of your bedding was indicative of how irrational their ethos was.

I wonder if they were behind some of the Red Tractor standards?

I don't think organic farmers buy non organic straw.