The Drought

[som farmer]

Why do you need to plough dung in?

I like to put heavy applications on, and the straw tends to stay on top. we are grass now, not arable.

 

[ajd132]

That is not quite what you said, but probably close enough apart from the earlier claim of soil exudates building soil carbon. I just wanted to check I had not missed anything. I still cannot see that I jumped to “wild conclusions” in my first post.

I posted because of your earlier posts in the thread, which led me to the “unwild” conclusion that you believe you, with your very limited experience, are right and others who do not follow your ideas are wrong. You do not make suggestions or merely tell people what you are doing, or would like to attempt. You tell them what they should be doing – on their land.

You also attack other farmers, especially as if they have purposely caused the sudden change from wet to dry. You have no idea how everyone else’s land is affected by a couple of weeks or so of dry winds.

Here are a few quotes from you in this thread alone:

The top is very dry but there is plenty of moisture in the soil, unless you have deliberately cultivated that moisture away.

seems pretty stupid to me to be moaning if you have taken a conscious decision to dry it right out.

We are obviously not very good at managing water on our farms in this country.

you have some deranged anger towards a technique that could help mitigate the affects of very dry springs.

We must look like complete idiots, crops dying because it was too wet 3 weeks ago and now crops dying because we dried the soil out. I’ve spoken to quite a few friends who now understand why I am so adamant that moving soil a few days prior to spring drilling to make a cosmetically better seed bed is such a bad idea.



Nor do you seem to allow for the climatic differences, particularly between where you live and higher ground several hundred miles to the north - @Bossfarmer for instance tells us he is between Perth and Inverness. I assume that means he is not on the eastern seaboard or other low lying ground. I rarely (if ever) agree with his posts but I happen to know the area well, although perhaps not quite as well as much of the higher ground in Northumberland, and I cannot see myself paying a six figure sum for a seed drill if I was farming again in those areas.

You might be interested in my treatment of two blocks of ground on my present property. You might not of course, but somebody else might. They were treated differently because they were different. One was easily grazed and the other would have required fencing which would need to be later removed.

“The worst test I have had was one of 1.3% in a mature olive grove in Portugal that had not received any input of soil nutrients for an unknown number of years.

It set very hard when it dried after rain or irrigation, water filtration and retention were extremely poor. Some weeds grew on it, but not in profusion, and very few different species. All in all the typical symptoms of a soil that lacks OM. The major part of it was in pasture for 4 years and grazed as frequently as possible with well-fed stock in order to increase the organic and soil nutrients content. It is now totally changed in character and is as good as it looks. The OM increased to 4.5% during these four years.

It is appropriate to note that during the time this particularly low OM content land was in pasture, I grew eight consecutive green manure crops on other land and the OM increased by only 0.3% from 2.7 to 3. These crops were well fertilised, well grown and cultivated into the soil.”

I don’t know how anyone can get so upset about me stating facts.
Deliberately making the soil dry through cultivation’s will mean if it doesn’t rain the soil will stay dry.
I havnt attacked anyone, I’ve stated the fact that they have helped exacerbate the wet to dry we have seen this season by making those decisions, that’s not me having an agenda or trying to force my views, that is a fact.

 

[Chae1]

I said you can build fertility and soil with techniques like cover and companion cropping. That of course animals help but there is other ways. Root exudates build soil.
everything else I’ve said is about how we conserve moisture in these dry springs. Posters are deploring about it being so dry so I shared what we have done that helps mitigate that, it’s a forum after all. some seem to take a lot of offence to stuff like that because it’s different to what they know.
to say that zero till drilling direct into cover crops and stubble conserves moisture is just fact, to say that drying out seedbeds with cultivation passes pre spring drilling loses all the moisture is again just a fact. I don’t get why people take such offence to reality.

I realise if I changed farming techniques my field wouldn't look like a beach and wouldn't be blowing away.

Animals! They are part of problem. Over 100 suckler cows have lived on that 18 acre field from October to end of January. It was sown with a catch crop of forage rape after spring barley. A tractor with feed cart was hauling out silage bales every 2nd day which made some deep ruts as winter was quite wet.

So in my wisdom or lack of, I ploughed it to get it level again. This levelled it and removed a lot of compaction. The cows didn't have flotations. Weigh 7-800kg each.

I could get rid of cows, sow a cover crop after harvest and wait till next spring and go in with a direct drill.

 

[Northern territory]

I don’t know how anyone can get so upset about me stating facts.
Deliberately making the soil dry through cultivation’s will mean if it doesn’t rain the soil will stay dry.
I havnt attacked anyone, I’ve stated the fact that they have helped exacerbate the wet to dry we have seen this season by making those decisions, that’s not me having an agenda or trying to force my views, that is a fact.

We plough and combi drill. Although this is our traditional option which we will probably stick with I can see the benefits of no-till, especially in spring. It seems to be year on year this 6 week dry period sets in with very little rain and before you know it you lose the moisture. It becomes such a lottery.

 

[ajd132]

I realise if I changed farming techniques my field wouldn't look like a beach and wouldn't be blowing away.

Animals! They are part of problem. Over 100 suckler cows have lived on that 18 acre field from October to end of January. It was sown with a catch crop of forage rape after spring barley. A tractor with feed cart was hauling out silage bales every 2nd day which made some deep ruts as winter was quite wet.

So in my wisdom or lack of, I ploughed it to get it level again. This levelled it and removed a lot of compaction. The cows didn't have flotations. Weigh 7-800kg each.

I could get rid of cows, sow a cover crop after harvest and wait till next spring and go in with a direct drill.

Do whatever you think is right. Or cherry pick ideas. I honestly don’t care if you plough or whatever. I’ve just stated the cultivating dries out soil and that you don’t necessarily need animals (but they obviously help loads) to build soil, that’s all.

 

[ajd132]

We plough and combi drill. Although this is our traditional option which we will probably stick with I can see the benefits of no-till, especially in spring. It seems to be year on year this 6 week dry period sets in with very little rain and before you know it you lose the moisture. It becomes such a lottery.

We can’t plough and combi. Either just drill straight in or a shallow cult in August then drill whenever it’s dry enough for the drill to run in the spring. It often looks horrible on top but it seems to work. Aslong as the seed is in reasonable conditions for it to grow I don’t care if it doesn’t look picture perfect from the road. We are starting to learn the often we can get away with much less intervention, although it does go wrong sometimes but that’s down to my management and not the system. I will attach a picture of some sh!t late direct drilled wheat, things don’t always work when you are learning a new system and end up pushing too hard.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

Rock hard here.
Alway dry when need rain ,and when don't need rain,it rains for months?
Wise guy said other day ,just make hay now???
Some dick heads about.

Many UK farms are like that. Biologically healthy soil is virtually never rock hard though, even if very dry. The air spaces in it are too big for that.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I really don't know why we can't discuss weather on this forum without being called " sad c-unts " and have our system of farming ridiculed. OK, 3 weeks dry weather isn't life threatening, but it does hit the bottom line buying in fodder, and lower grain yields. Why are we not allowed to talk about things which affect UK farming on a UK farming forum ?

I strongly suspect it's the ridiculous use of the word "drought" that upsets the antipodeans most on TFF. Most UK farmers have no idea what a drought really is. It certainly isn't a few weeks without rainfall.

 

[Northern territory]

We can’t plough and combi. Either just drill straight in or a shallow cult in August then drill whenever it’s dry enough for the drill to run in the spring. It often looks horrible on top but it seems to work. Aslong as the seed is in reasonable conditions for it to grow I don’t care if it doesn’t look picture perfect from the road. We are starting to learn the often we can get away with much less intervention, although it does go wrong sometimes but that’s down to my management and not the system. I will attach a picture of some sh!t late direct drilled wheat, things don’t always work when you are learning a new system and end up pushing too hard.

Like most we have ended up with most of farm in spring dropping which I dread. Grow roo

We can’t plough and combi. Either just drill straight in or a shallow cult in August then drill whenever it’s dry enough for the drill to run in the spring. It often looks horrible on top but it seems to work. Aslong as the seed is in reasonable conditions for it to grow I don’t care if it doesn’t look picture perfect from the road. We are starting to learn the often we can get away with much less intervention, although it does go wrong sometimes but that’s down to my management and not the system. I will attach a picture of some sh!t late direct drilled wheat, things don’t always work when you are learning a new system and end up pushing too hard.

are you on clay? Mate of mine has tried some with a Claydon for first time as an experiment.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

I realise if I changed farming techniques my field wouldn't look like a beach and wouldn't be blowing away.

Animals! They are part of problem. Over 100 suckler cows have lived on that 18 acre field from October to end of January. It was sown with a catch crop of forage rape after spring barley. A tractor with feed cart was hauling out silage bales every 2nd day which made some deep ruts as winter was quite wet.

So in my wisdom or lack of, I ploughed it to get it level again. This levelled it and removed a lot of compaction. The cows didn't have flotations. Weigh 7-800kg each.

I could get rid of cows, sow a cover crop after harvest and wait till next spring and go in with a direct drill.

Don't blame the cows for the way you choose to manage them. That's no different to others blaming you for choosing to plough.

 

[ajd132]

Like most we have ended up with most of farm in spring dropping which I dread. Grow roo

are you on clay? Mate of mine has tried some with a Claydon for first time as an experiment.

We are hanslope clay or chalky boulder clay as it’s also called. Springs crops we havnt direct drilled before as been to worried about them, always done a shallowish cult in the previous August just to get some tilth to play with. This year forced us to zero till in the spring on about 180ha we didn’t get wheat drilled into and it went incredibly well, just need to wait a abit longer.

 

[CornishTone]

So, to clarify, you can only suggest ways to mitigate low rainfall if a) you don’t come from the Southern Hemisphere (because, let’s face it, they’re all a bunch of c*nts), or b) you don’t own, operate or advocate the use of, zero tillage machinery?

Bit thin skinned aren’t we?! This is discussion forum. Either discuss or ignore but for crying out loud don’t get all hurt and bent over someone else’s experience or opinion.

To pin my colours to the mast; in this sh1tty, cluster f**k of a year, and against my better judgment, we’ve used both p/p-h and a strip till system to establish our pitiful area of spring oats and barley. Only a week in but, so far, not a huge difference in retained soil moisture, seeds under both systems are roughly at the same stage of germination, one looks like a billiard table and one looks a bit rough and ready. Which will win?

I know which I prefer, from a soil health point of view but, not wishing to offend the terminally offended, I am open minded to the advantages of both sys... nah f**k it, the plough is the work of Satan! [emoji57]

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

So, to clarify, you can only suggest ways to mitigate low rainfall if a) you don’t come from the Southern Hemisphere (because, let’s face it, they’re all a bunch of c*nts), or b) you don’t own, operate or advocate the use of, zero tillage machinery?

Bit thin skinned aren’t we?! This is discussion forum. Either discuss or ignore but for crying out loud don’t get all hurt and bent over someone else’s experience or opinion.

To pin my colours to the mast; in this sh1tty, cluster f**k of a year, and against my better judgment, we’ve used both p/p-h and a strip till system to establish our pitiful area of spring oats and barley. Only a week in but, so far, not a huge difference in retained soil moisture, seeds under both systems are roughly at the same stage of germination, one looks like a billiard table and one looks a bit rough and ready. Which will win?

I know which I prefer, from a soil health point of view but, not wishing to offend the terminally offended, I am open minded to the advantages of both sys... nah f**k it, the plough is the work of Satan! [emoji57]

Which establishment cost more? .......

 

[Sharpy]

I like to put heavy applications on, and the straw tends to stay on top. we are grass now, not arable.

Would there be any mileage in composting the dung a bit to break the straw up? Or spreading it with something like an NC rear discharge with the flails discharging onto spreading discs for a very fine shred?

 

[CornishTone]

Which establishment cost more? .......

What do you reckon?[emoji57]
Both drills were roughly the same cost per ac from our contractor. One had the plough in front of it. Both had the Cambridge roller after.

 

[shakerator]

We can’t plough and combi. Either just drill straight in or a shallow cult in August then drill whenever it’s dry enough for the drill to run in the spring. It often looks horrible on top but it seems to work. Aslong as the seed is in reasonable conditions for it to grow I don’t care if it doesn’t look picture perfect from the road. We are starting to learn the often we can get away with much less intervention, although it does go wrong sometimes but that’s down to my management and not the system. I will attach a picture of some sh!t late direct drilled wheat, things don’t always work when you are learning a new system and end up pushing too hard.

seen a lot worse this year !

 

[ajd132]

seen a lot worse this year !

It is awful, but it was a problem caused by my management and not the system. First year direct drilling when it’s been proper wet, most looks okay though. But it’s years like this under adversity when you really learn vast amounts and work out how to integrate solutions into the system for the future. This is why I keep banging on that we need to take ownership of our problems rather than just blame the weather, the easy cop out.

 

[kiwi pom]

I really don't know why we can't discuss weather on this forum without being called " sad c-unts " and have our system of farming ridiculed. OK, 3 weeks dry weather isn't life threatening, but it does hit the bottom line buying in fodder, and lower grain yields. Why are we not allowed to talk about things which affect UK farming on a UK farming forum ?

Agree with you there, the weather can be such a pain in the arse in the UK that your plans have to change to fit in around it all the time.
Every farm and every farmer is different, you farm to your conditions, not someone else's.
Having lived and worked in 3 continents, I've found the most important thing to do is adapt to the locals. What worked at the 'other place' could be totally wrong at the next place. Even locally farmers have totally different ideas that you have to adapt to as an employee, even if you don't agree with some.
If you swapped farms both people would have a big change.

I'd love to see @Bossfarmer and @Farmer Roy swap places for a year

How about a new TV show, Farm Swap?

 

[som farmer]

So, to clarify, you can only suggest ways to mitigate low rainfall if a) you don’t come from the Southern Hemisphere (because, let’s face it, they’re all a bunch of c*nts), or b) you don’t own, operate or advocate the use of, zero tillage machinery?

Bit thin skinned aren’t we?! This is discussion forum. Either discuss or ignore but for crying out loud don’t get all hurt and bent over someone else’s experience or opinion.

To pin my colours to the mast; in this sh1tty, cluster f**k of a year, and against my better judgment, we’ve used both p/p-h and a strip till system to establish our pitiful area of spring oats and barley. Only a week in but, so far, not a huge difference in retained soil moisture, seeds under both systems are roughly at the same stage of germination, one looks like a billiard table and one looks a bit rough and ready. Which will win?

I know which I prefer, from a soil health point of view but, not wishing to offend the terminally offended, I am open minded to the advantages of both sys... nah f**k it, the plough is the work of Satan! [emoji57]

we had archeologist study our farm for 18 months, you would find it mindboggling, to see how farming has altered the landscape, and most of it has been caused by the plough. What the arcs do, is take a field, use their magic electronics, to show interesting bits, target those areas, and dig, also dig test pits at a regular pattern. They dig down to the original 'natural' level, so you 'see' everything that's happened. The road through the farm, goes through a cutting, 20ft deep, the roman field systems, go straight over it, ie, it wasn't there then, the earliest plough pans were from 1200 ad, really well defined, but 5ft down, that is how the soil has moved since then ! and there is a series of pans, as you rise, and, we were a stock farm, rather than arable, because the fields are big. Through their scanning, and digging, they tell me farming has happened here, for 3500yrs, continuously, and it is scary to see how we have altered the landscape, altered soil levels, ditched, drained, and probably not for the better ! And mostly by Cornish tone's satan's inspired tool. But it is fascinating to see fields with the same names as the medeaval tythe records, not sure of those dates, but we do have a map dated 1725, with the same names.
All that is a long winded way of saying, we ought to take a lot more care of our soils.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

we ought to take a lot more care of our soils.

on that we DO agree