The Right Policy

[DrWazzock]

No.
The right thing would be to have consistency in policy so that imports would have to meet the same requirements as home produce and all produce assessed on the the same environmental credentials.
That way, any method of production will succeed on merit.

The kind of thing you would expect a Sustainable Farming Incentive to do.

Currently, food production succeeds on the willingness of the producer to compromise on profit, on the environment, on working conditions, on quality, on welfare, etc, etc,
or by state controls/ subsidies and/or absolute lies. [fake meats and vertical farming]

@Jackov Altraids
I hope you don’t mind me quoting you here to start this thread but your reply above in the vertical farming thread struck me as absolutely spot on at describing what’s presently wrong with policy and what the government should be doing about it.
The right policy would for example raise standards for the environment and for workers not only here but also abroad. It could make Red Tractor worthwhile rather than a sham that causes us higher costs while lower cost lower standard imports still flood in and out compete us.
Government @Janet Hughes Defra of whatever colour really do need to read your succinct and accurate appraisal of the present problem and what needs to be done about it.

 

[livestock 1]

I’ve openly said on here for years I don’t agree with bringing red meat in from the other side of the world. I’ve been severely criticised for doing so by many on here, some of which claim to be ‘farmers’
I have my reasons mostly explained above by @Jackov Altraids plus a few more
When I’ve entered these discussions I was and still am shocked that I had virtually no back up by anyone on here on what I thought was a sensible stance I had taken on the matter

 

[DrWazzock]

And as I’ve said before if crops grown with pesticides that are banned here weren’t allowed in, then prices here would rise to commercially sustainable levels commensurate with the lower yields we get by not using the banned pesticides and most importantly we wouldn’t need a production subsidy.
The problem with present SFI is there’s no production subsidy but we are exposed to lower cost lower standard imports. That’s just not a commercially sustainable situation for U.K. food production and no amount of “at cost” or “income foregone” bumblebird schemes will make up for that.
While environmental schemes are laudable they aren’t the whole picture. Commercially sustainable U.K. food production has been omitted from policy.

 

[Hill Ground]

To be honest, insuring all our imports are produced to the same standards that we work too is such common sense you wonder why it's not a thing already!

 

[melted welly]

One of the problems with all of this is that any “farming” policy isn’t the preserve of “farming” or “farmers”. There are many other stakeholder groups (who else hates that term) that need to have an oar and an open hand in it.

This ranges from single interest campaign groups, thru large national charities, retail, consultancy firms, forestry etc etc, none of whom have “skin in the game” ie stand to lose much if/when bad policy is enacted. And those stakeholders are better at lobbying than farmers.

Therefore, any sustainable farming policy will always end up being a policy to sustain hangers-on in a manner which they have become accustomed.

 

[delilah]

Produced to our standards. It's going nowhere, for the reasons discussed on here before:

https://thefarmingforum.co.uk/index.php?threads/this-nfu-produced-to-our-standards-malarkey.311486/

'The right policy', specific to this issue of imports, is as suggested in the OP of the above thread. All Government departments and agencies to have a legally binding 'British first' purchasing policy. Because all meaningful change is demand driven.

 

[soapsud]

Stakeholders' interests have the numbers on their side because further down river they're adding value by creating more jobs than us mere primary producers. The yanks call it the tail wagging the dog. Trouble is, if the dog gives up, the tail is going to look a bit useless, isn't it?

 

[yellowbelly]

An idea like @Jackov Altraids would get my vote.

The problem would be to get our politicians to take it on board and make it into a policy.

As @Hill Ground says, above, it involves common sense - a commodity all too lacking in Westminster.

Until the quality of people standing as MP's improves we'll just keep getting third rate thinking from third rate minds.
Today's lot just seem to be 'career politicians' on some sort of power trip or greedy bu99ers who just want to feather their own nests

Until we go back to having MP's who have made their mark in the world first and understand how 'the world works', we'll continue to be saddled with bad policies that are born without any joined up thinking.

 

[No wot]

To be honest, insuring all our imports are produced to the same standards that we work too is such common sense you wonder why it's not a thing already!

The reality is that it's simply not enforceable from this country without major expense , Goverment policy is cheap accessible food regardless of origin and let the consumer decide at the point of sale , (Goverment couldn't give dam about domestic production), if anything the labelling laws for food need a major overhaul with big fines and directors held accountable ( prison sentences) for any fraudulent misleading labelling on all foods processed or sold in this country

 

[DrWazzock]

I’ll take my favourite crop, oilseed rape, as an example.
The government stopped us using neonic seed dressings as they said they were harming bees. OK, so far so good. I don’t want to harm bees so I’ll struggle on with OSR production and take the yield hit. But I learn we will be importing at least half a million tonnes of oilseed rape this year. But I’d bet that’s grown with neonic seed dressings. The price is therefore lower which brings down the price we receive here to commercially unviable levels.
What should have happened is the government should have said “no, sorry we can’t import any of that OSR produced using those nasty neonics as it doesn’t meet the ethical standards we impose on our own farmers and we don’t want it to undercut them.” Obviously veg oil prices here would then go through the roof and my OSR would be worth £750 a tonne but that would then be a true and honest reflection of the “cost” of taking a high moral tone with environmental policy. And who could complain about that? The government says voters want food produced to high standards so suck up the real cost and don’t allow in cheaper goods produced to lower standards.
What we have at the moment : high standards imposed at home, while allowing in imports produced to lower standards cos they’re cheap, is widespread hypocracy and political duplicity of the highest order.
Will anybody hold them to account?

 

[soapsud]

The problem would be to get our politicians to take it on board and make it into a policy.

Farmers are good at producing. Farmers' representatives are expert in telling policy makers what is best for food production. Therefore get the representatives to tell government what farmers need to feed the nation ...

Oh, hang on a minute...

That doesn't seem to be working ....

How about we look at the Netherlands. The farmers simply told the people what was needed and the people voted in the Farmers Party. It's called democracy.

 

[010101]

The geopolitical equilibrium is mercantilist.

Your good and righteous beliefs cannot bear fruit in a trading environment of total state intervention in all commerce, domestic and foreign.

The UK cannot be an 'island without trade', we don't have the wealth of resources.

All global commodities are priced in dollars.

Which bunch of politicians do you think plans their prices?

 

[ollie989898]

I’ll take my favourite crop, oilseed rape, as an example.
The government stopped us using neonic seed dressings as they said they were harming bees. OK, so far so good. I don’t want to harm bees so I’ll struggle on with OSR production and take the yield hit. But I learn we will be importing at least half a million tonnes of oilseed rape this year. But I’d bet that’s grown with neonic seed dressings. The price is therefore lower which brings down the price we receive here to commercially unviable levels.
What should have happened is the government should have said “no, sorry we can’t import any of that OSR produced using those nasty neonics as it doesn’t meet the ethical standards we impose on our own farmers and we don’t want it to undercut them.” Obviously veg oil prices here would then go through the roof and my OSR would be worth £750 a tonne but that would then be a true and honest reflection of the “cost” of taking a high moral tone with environmental policy. And who could complain about that? The government says voters want food produced to high standards so suck up the real cost and don’t allow in cheaper goods produced to lower standards.
What we have at the moment : high standards imposed at home, while allowing in imports produced to lower standards cos they’re cheap, is widespread hypocracy and political duplicity of the highest order.
Will anybody hold them to account?

I am convinced that the reduction in chemistry available for peas, beans, linseed and OSR has really really hurt the prospects of bees because nobody grows them any longer. This must have had a huge impact on them. Not that many years ago, the country was a variable mixture of differing flowering crops. Today you see none of it. That must have dramatically hammered the wild bee population of the UK. At the same time you've had a huge reduction in the amount of apple orchards or fruit being grown outdoors. All imported now from afar.

 

[Pan mixer]

History shows that HMG don't care ;

Sow stalls were banned here in 99, rest of Europe had a partial ban from 13, as far as I am aware that has not been enforced yet.

In the meantime the Sow population in the UK went down from 850,000 to around 350,000 and pork consumption has been constant or slightly increasing, now we only produce about 40% of our pigmeat consumped here.

No one cared everything was a bit cheaper produced by those 'illegal in the UK' methods.

 

[Goweresque]

To be honest, insuring all our imports are produced to the same standards that we work too is such common sense you wonder why it's not a thing already!

Because the electorate are human beings who want to have their cake and eat it. They want to vote for politicians who promise to look after the birds and the bees and the fluffy bunnies, and save the planet, but they also want to fill their shopping trollies with cheap food each week, so they can afford the high consumption lifestyle they think they are entitled to. They are in effect utter hypocrites.

But then farmers are exactly the same - they demand the consumers buy British food because its 'better', yet drive Fendts, Lexions, and Hiluxes. Precisely because they are human beings too. Wanting to have your cake and eat it is a fairly universal human trait. Very few people are prepared to force themselves to live within their own stated ethical boundaries voluntarily.

 

[MF CI]

So plenty of examples where we're going wrong, I and I suppose many others thought that brexit would give the UK a chance to put Britain first and end some of those stupid things and stop shooting ourselves in the foot. It appears as though our politicians and civil servants don't want to make the most of the opportunities.

 

[livestock 1]

Because the electorate are human beings who want to have their cake and eat it. They want to vote for politicians who promise to look after the birds and the bees and the fluffy bunnies, and save the planet, but they also want to fill their shopping trollies with cheap food each week, so they can afford the high consumption lifestyle they think they are entitled to. They are in effect utter hypocrites.

But then farmers are exactly the same - they demand the consumers buy British food because its 'better', yet drive Fendts, Lexions, and Hiluxes. Precisely because they are human beings too. Wanting to have your cake and eat it is a fairly universal human trait. Very few people are prepared to force themselves to live within their own stated ethical boundaries voluntarily.

That’s a ridiculous comment to make. This type of generalisation is taught in schools and I see it on a daily basis. People get things into their heads something they’ve been told, which applied to one thing then apply that comment to everything else that might remotely be similar resulting in the wrong answer.
Just because the UK doesn’t supply something like a pickup or a tractor as you put it, doesn’t really mean we should do without or can manage without those items. You will probably come back and argue that a New Holland is British, maybe a bit made in China on the most part not all from there, assembled here fair enough but owned abroad. Or maybe a land rover with a BMW engine or Peugeot possibly assembled here maybe but owned by India. You are talking tosh.
Buying lamb or beef from the other side of the world transported from the other side of the world with all those implications involved in that which can be produced here by hard working willing folks that want to produce it here. No comparison.
You can’t blame farmers for other industries that have been sold out.
I have a New Holland and a Landrover by the way and a Hilux

 

[Hill Ground]

They are in effect utter hypocrites.

But then farmers are exactly the same - they demand the consumers buy British food because its 'better', yet drive Fendts, Lexions, and Hiluxes

The fendts flexion and hiluxes are all produced to our standards though. Or to international standards we agree too. Seat belts, indicators, air bags etc etc.

A better example of farmer hypocrisy is the cheap clothes most of us wear produced in the far east in poor conditions.

I'm as guilty as anyone of that!!

 

[Goweresque]

You can’t blame farmers for other industries that have been sold out.

So if farmers had bought British built machines in the past, and eschewed the foreign competition would those British manufacturers still be making them here?

 

[DrWazzock]

I am convinced that the reduction in chemistry available for peas, beans, linseed and OSR has really really hurt the prospects of bees because nobody grows them any longer. This must have had a huge impact on them. Not that many years ago, the country was a variable mixture of differing flowering crops. Today you see none of it. That must have dramatically hammered the wild bee population of the UK. At the same time you've had a huge reduction in the amount of apple orchards or fruit being grown outdoors. All imported now from afar.

It’s an aside but I agree. I’ve seen a lot of dead bumble bees lately. Maybe it’s the weather but ….Normally they’d moving from OSR into beans. Not many beans grown now in this locality. Where’s their food source? Gone. What are they supposed to live on? I drilled half an acre of red clover but it’s a small substitute. And we’ve used no insecticide this spring so what’s going on?