JohnGalway
Member
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
The war in Ukraine...
- Thread starter Danllan
- Start date
- Location
- Limousin
I would disagree with the Western hypocrisy and cowardice bit, as the more I think about it, the more I think NATO has it about right if somewhat unfortunately for the Ukrainians. The Russian state was/is in a hole economically and getting worse, due to sanctions, corruption, covid etc. Putin's solution seems to have been the standard dictators response blame a neighbouring country and in this case the West as well, in an effort to explain and galvanise the Russian population into accepting their continued hardship. To put NATO forces in direct confrontation with Russia, would just confirm to the Russian population that there leader was entirely correct in his actions. As it is, he is reduced to lies and censorship on a massive scale to hide the truth which can only work for so long.
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
Well I'm not going to overplay the hypocrisy and cowardice, but it was there... I think NATO has less to look shamefaced about than Western leaders; annoyingly for me and irritatingly for you, that applies to the UK and a lot - maybe all - of the EU states, and Switzerland, and others. Putin and his cronies have been tolerated, humoured, welcomed, given nationality! etc. etc. And we bought his oil and his gas and his iron.I would disagree with the Western hypocrisy and cowardice bit, as the more I think about it, the more I think NATO has it about right if somewhat unfortunately for the Ukrainians. The Russian state was/is in a hole economically and getting worse, due to sanctions, corruption, covid etc. Putin's solution seems to have been the standard dictators response blame a neighbouring country and in this case the West as well, in an effort to explain and galvanise the Russian population into accepting their continued hardship. To put NATO forces in direct confrontation with Russia, would just confirm to the Russian population that there leader was entirely correct in his actions. As it is, he is reduced to lies and censorship on a massive scale to hide the truth which can only work for so long.
I think NATO could certainly have armed Ukraine, more, better and earlier, both covertly and overtly. I certainly would not have NATO give Putin any propaganda victory, but there needs to be a visable, demonstrable and constant presence - in fact there always needed to be, it's just become undeniable now.
Edit: thinking on it, I'm minded it's not really fair to lump in the Eastern EU states with the rest of us; they were warning us for a long time, we just weren't listening.
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- Location
- Limousin
I wouldn't disagree with that at all. The west has been complicit for a number of decades in encouraging Russians and Russia into economic cooperation and mutual dependency as a way of mitigating the risk of future conflict. This has now blown up spectacularly in our faces. Back to the drawing board I guess.
Putin has single-handedly reinvigorated both NATO and EU. He has also multiplied the desire of numerous eastern countries outside the EU, to now join it.
Simultaneously he has exposed the dire state of his military and driven the Russian economy back to 1900.
All while trying to create a scenario where he would be remembered more fondly in Russia than Peter the Great.
Simultaneously he has exposed the dire state of his military and driven the Russian economy back to 1900.
All while trying to create a scenario where he would be remembered more fondly in Russia than Peter the Great.
JohnGalway
Member
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
An excellent thread on logistics and THAT 40 mile convoy
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
It was, and is. They can't do anything, they take up resources, they block further advance and they make easy targets and news stories.
- Location
- South Wales UK
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
It wouldn't get a penny from me; the whole point of Ukraine's struggle is to maintain democracy and the rule of law, something like this utterly undermines that and gives a propaganda prize to Putin.
I won't shed a tear when he is removed, sooner the better, but it's simply not to be done as you propose.
- Location
- S E Glos
And if successful, it wouldn't stop there.
- Location
- Northumberland
Presumably that was how Merkel saw things.
- Location
- Limousin
A Russian oligarch has already offered a million dollars to kill Putin, but it isn't that simple. You only have to look at the attempts on Hitler to realise how difficult and complex an operation it would need to be. But there is always a chance with some luck that the people around him decide he has become a liability and remove him one way or another.
JohnGalway
Member
- Location
- Connemara, Ireland
I may be corrected but I believe it has since dispersed
its yourself
Member
- Location
- Scotland, Finland and France.
Putin is demanding reparations from the USA. https://www.thedailybeast.com/wild-...unless-sanctions-end-and-reparations-are-paid
Danllan
Member
- Location
- Sir Gar / Carms
Parts - presumably from the front - have moved, but there is still a very large column on the original road. A problem the Russians have is that they've allowed the Ukrainians weeks to prepare a 'reception' for them, and to impede their progress on all the routes into and around Kiev.
- Location
- Limousin
Interesting footage from inside a Ukrainian AFV attacking Russians in Mariupol
Charlie Gill
Member
- Location
- Kent
At what point do we move on from the condemning stage?
It was to keep her green lobby happy, anything else is spin,they had no need to buy gas they had plenty of coal and nuclear to generate electric with
- Location
- Limousin/Charentes toad land
i hope the visit to Kyiv of the Prime Ministers of Poland, Czech Republic and Slovenia doesn’t need moving to the « mistakes of the west » thread 
I’m sure all solidarity helps
I’m sure all solidarity helps