Vendeen Sheep

[Yale]

That’s three strikes, so they’re out!

And they are.

 

[sheep breeder]

Are the uk charollais not like that now with wool on the head, white or brown face and chocolate legs nothing like a real charollais, if uk charollais were dna there would be some not showing so pure. JB was init for the money.

 

[neilo]

Are the uk charollais not like that now with wool on the head, white or brown face and chocolate legs nothing like a real charollais, if uk charollais were dna there would be some not showing so pure. JB was init for the money.

Not many woolly heads around here, but plenty with more hair than they used to have. There always was a variation, as there is in any breed, so plenty have been breeding for more cover (thankfully), rather than the thin skinned things that came from France originally.
I’ve no doubt a few have done a bit of crossing to speed it up too, but easy enough to spot (& avoid) those with heavy bone and shoulders, and with less natural loin muscling.

 

[Dkb]

Not many woolly heads around here, but plenty with more hair than they used to have. There always was a variation, as there is in any breed, so plenty have been breeding for more cover (thankfully), rather than the thin skinned things that came from France originally.
I’ve no doubt a few have done a bit of crossing to speed it up too, but easy enough to spot (& avoid) those with heavy bone and shoulders, and with less natural loin muscling.

What crossing was used in the breed to increase cover?

 

[glensman]

Not many woolly heads around here, but plenty with more hair than they used to have. There always was a variation, as there is in any breed, so plenty have been breeding for more cover (thankfully), rather than the thin skinned things that came from France originally.
I’ve no doubt a few have done a bit of crossing to speed it up too, but easy enough to spot (& avoid) those with heavy bone and shoulders, and with less natural loin muscling.

My theory is that the Southdown breeding in the formation of charollais sheep expresses it's self as more cover was selected for within the breed in the UK. This can be seen in brown hair on the legs and face and the odd top knot.

 

[neilo]

What crossing was used in the breed to increase cover?

As above, there has always been some natural variation. We bought our first Charollais rams for crossing in 1989 (the reason we bought a few ewes a couple of years later), a couple of those had a fair covering of hair.
The shortcut a few have taken would likely include Texel blood I suspect, although there was a high priced ram lamb sold about that time that 'disappeared' when he threw a few black headed lambs.....allegedly.

The Charollais breed is no more, or less, likely to have it's share of rogues.

 

[andybk]

When the charollais first came in they were long , low burgundy headed sheep with a flash of white over the eyes and up nose a lot had southdown type wool ,a friend thought they were landrace pigs grazing when he went to buy one from Roland harris in the 80s
to make them bigger (to compete with the suffolk in the ring) they were crossed with rouges , that made them bigger framed more longer wool (for trimming) and very soft narrow pink heads , but more nesh and open coated when born ,and they lost the back end , a scottish breeder also put some border leicester in as well they had very white heads , so next step was cross with the suffolk (brown heads and legs and the obsession with shaving faces to cover it up ) , since then the texel (and beltex) has been crossed in to get the conformation and shape back in , just walk through the tex x char rings then char ring at builth and see if you can tell the difference ,Most of these incarnations have been down to individual breeders that came in , won , royal / highland/ welsh for a few years sold some high priced stock that went to other high pyramid flocks and left . (some under a cloud )
We used to offer a service scrapie testing in the USA when it was expensive and complicated here , and were privy to the results , surprising how many charollais had H in the mix that only came from texels .
The main reason i have gone back to france to buy new rams ,not that i wouldnt buy uk sheep again , btw just horses for courses

 

[sheep breeder]

So what your saying Neilo is the uk charollais are cross bred sheep and not pure. Andy you have hit the nail on the head with piper calling the tune and they following him down the road away from true charollais.

 

[MDL POWERUP]

One of the ewe lambs I bought back in the summer at around 20 weeks old. All ewe lambs now tupped to lamb end of march to early April. No concentrates and still plenty of flesh. We'll see how they get on..

 

[neilo]

So what your saying Neilo is the uk charollais are cross bred sheep and not pure. Andy you have hit the nail on the head with piper calling the tune and they following him down the road away from true charollais.

No, that’s not what I said at all. I would guess that ‘some’ will have had other genetics brought in, much like has happened in every other breed where a few unscrupulous breeders have been looking to make a quick buck (@andybk mentioned that Texel ‘H’ genotype, which the NSP showed up in a few Suffolk’s too, unsurprisingly).
What I said was that there has always been a variation within the breed, as with any other breed, and most have selected along those lines to get a hardier sheep with more hair cover (not the woolly heads that the Vendeen in the OP suffers from). I would suggest that’s most definitely a good thing, and wouldn’t take a bare French bred type these days, for all the tea in China.

We digress though, this thread is about Vendeens, and why the woolly little buggers have been overlooked/dismissed by the UK sheep industry.

 

[andybk]

No, that’s not what I said at all. I would guess that ‘some’ will have had other genetics brought in, much like has happened in every other breed where a few unscrupulous breeders have been looking to make a quick buck (@andybk mentioned that Texel ‘H’ genotype, which the NSP showed up in a few Suffolk’s too, unsurprisingly).
What I said was that there has always been a variation within the breed, as with any other breed, and most have selected along those lines to get a hardier sheep with more hair cover (not the woolly heads that the Vendeen in the OP suffers from). I would suggest that’s most definitely a good thing, and wouldn’t take a bare French bred type these days, for all the tea in China.

We digress though, this thread is about Vendeens, and why the woolly little buggers have been overlooked/dismissed by the UK sheep industry.

lol you keep telling yourself that , both sheep breeder and myself have been to france numerous times , i have never seen a "uk type" in france with white or brown heads / topknots , for one they wont register anything with head cover other than the hair i mentioned earlier , and i have 3 french rams here with very tight southdown coats , just what i went to buy .I would agree though that there is a big variation in wool cover .

 

[neilo]

lol you keep telling yourself that , both sheep breeder and myself have been to france numerous times , i have never seen a "uk type" in france with white or brown heads / topknots , for one they wont register anything with head cover other than the hair i mentioned earlier , and i have 3 french rams here with very tight southdown coats , just what i went to buy .I would agree though that there is a big variation in wool cover .

You live in a different world ‘down South’ though, and you yourself advocate ‘looking after’ the crossbred lambs for 48 hours before turnout. That doesn’t happen here, or on many farms here & further West/North, where crossbred lambs are born outdoors and have to be able to get on. Horses for courses and all that.

Still, not the place for that particular discussion.

 

[sheepwise]

When the charollais first came in they were long , low burgundy headed sheep with a flash of white over the eyes and up nose a lot had southdown type wool ,
to make them bigger (to compete with the suffolk in the ring) they were crossed with rouges , that made them bigger framed more longer wool (for trimming) and very soft narrow pink heads , but more nesh and open coated when born ,and they lost the back end , a scottish breeder also put some border leicester in as well they had very white heads , so next step was cross with the suffolk (brown heads and legs and the obsession with shaving faces to cover it up ) , since then the texel (and beltex) has been crossed in to get the conformation and shape back in , just walk through the tex x char rings then char ring at builth and see if you can tell the difference ,Most of these incarnations have been down to individual breeders that came in , won , royal / highland/ welsh for a few years sold some high priced stock that went to other high pyramid flocks and left . (some under a cloud )
We used to offer a service scrapie testing in the USA when it was expensive and complicated here , and were privy to the results , surprising how many charollais had H in the mix that only came from texels .
The main reason i have gone back to france to buy new rams ,not that i wouldnt buy uk sheep again , btw just horses for courses

Think you are getting a bit carried away there @andybk .Who ever would have put Border leicester blood into them or Suffolk for that matter? I wouldn't dispute that there will be a texel influence has worked it's way in to a degree but not sufficient to cause a significant change in breed type. At the end of the day how pure is any breed, as the French Charollais itself was I believe only officially recognised in the late 60s, having been bred from southdowns and local sheep breeds.
For the record, we have been breeding and using charollais as our main terminal sire for over 30 years and regularly buy our stock tups at Worcester but also in the past at Builth. I believe provided we select for good skin types and hard flesh that the UK Charollais is a much improved and consistent breed than when originally imported. I visited some French flocks four years ago and saw some good carcase sheep but also some very ordinary ones. I never actually saw a tup that I would have been desperate to buy, but then you probably have better contacts than me.

 

[Bones]

Vendeen ram or Hampshire ram for outside lambing?

 

[Woolless]

Vendeen ram or Hampshire ram for outside lambing?

A friend of mine ran a Vendeen tup for a season and reported the lambs as being a bit soft. He was only there one year, he had a couple of other complaints too, which surprised me as I thought they looked quite useful. I find the Hampshires good for outdoor lambing. I'm not saying you don't have to give a handful a pull out but they are tough, quick to their feet and sook. IF you buy from a commercially focused breeder.