Vetch Trial / experiment

[jd24]

Hi,

I thought I would share what I have experienced from planting vetches on a very small patch of ground(now a veg patch). This is the winter hardy Hairy Vetch and not the other type which is not hardy.

I have been looking around at green manure options on our land and I have read many great thing about vetches. I had concerns they would not grow very well on our land ( North Herefordshire) which is a fairly heavy-ish clay so I decided to do a small trial.

I did this in a rush and late. I rotavated an area the size of a tennis court and broadcast the seed by hand in the last week of September 2016 and raked the ground. This could have gone badly as we had a cool and dry October which is not ideal for germination. I watered half of the patch to compare what would happen.

November Arrived - see photo 061116. Seed had managed to germinate but the area that wasn't watered was thinner in numbers ( on the right).

From this point on I have not touched them with anything. No Watering and No fert.

January Arrived - They had filled out a bit more but the area on the right(just off camera) was struggling

January Close up

10th March 2017 - This came around fast and they had really filled out - covering most of the ground and already starting to compete with weeds.

21st April 2017 -
Now get ready for the big change - I had decided to work in the area on the right as my Girlfriend wanted to plant her vegetables( I will come back to working it in). The vetches are around 12" in height at this stage. They totally dominate the ground they are on. Weeds have no chance. I did seed one purple flowering nettle try and get up but the vetches have little shoots they wrap around the weeds and they strangle it back.

21st April Close up - Thick and dense ground cover

11th May 2017 - Note we have had very little rain since early march and its grown to nearly 18" tall. Now to today I was mowing another strip for more vegetables. This reveals the most interesting part. The vetch growth upward is only half maybe a third of the story. The plant produces a thick matt of stems etc that completely blanket cover the ground. The ground has therefore remained extremely moist. The root structure in the ground and nodules on the roots has made the soil so easy to turn over by hand with a spade. The soil crumbs very easily. On the left of the photo I squeezed the tractor in a used the rotavator to speed things up and it has produce a really nice soil. Rich in organic matter and hopefully the N fixing roots will do wonders for the vegatables(time will tell). The plant stems (at this stage break up very easily and are not stringy) and I think If I did this on a large scale I think rolling then disc harrowing across the rolled plant may be all that's required to incorporate. If you had a power harrow on a drill i think you could possibly get away with just rolling a couple of days before the drill for some crops however you my want the vetch to break down a bit before planting.

Close up of soil 11 May 2017

Overall I have been quite impressed;
- Weeds have no chance
- Germinated even in late and bad conditions however the lack or water did affect the area i didnt water. I wouldn't recommend sowing late. - Its expensive seed.
- Drilling is simple. Broadcast, harrow and sit back.
-I think the most significant part is how workable it made the soil. I really think it would reduce cultivation costs for your next crop.
- Fertility....time will tell. My girlfriend has me planting every veg possible so I will report on progress.
- Big question....is the cost of seed worth all of these qualities on a larger scale???

 

[KMA]

very interesting I'll follow progress with interest

 

[The_Swede]

Always seems to come later like this in my experience too, but looks cracking in front and of veg as you describe. At an arable scale you are somewhat limiting your realistic crop options if confined to early May drilling though, and as you also allude to I'm pretty sure vetch is said to show tangible allelopathy - so potentially a further delay to planting the following crop.

Do keep us posted though, soil looks lovely as you say.

 

[jd24]

Yeah it's a bit of a tricky one. Seed starts around £50/acre . So you want to get your money's worth.
I read that to get the full benefit of the legume locking up nitrogen you need the temp to get above 14c so if you have a cool early spring you only get a bit of organic matter and no nitrogen. There could be a window in April to incorporate the vetches and still get usual spring crops in. If you don't they will flower by end of May and you can start to run the risk of self seeding so you have to incorporate them. This will leave you scratching your head until autumn...

 

[Old McDonald]

I have a fair number of small scattered areas of vetch (probably criss-crosses) that grow naturally each year and I encourage them where appropriate by allowing them to set seed. This means that some of the N is diverted to the seed, but that is acceptable. I do not remember the details on temps for N fixation but do recall that the later the plant material is incorporated the more N will be fixed - prior to flowering.

As already posted there is not a lot of growth to be seen until temps begin to increase in the spring, so not the best of crops for winter soil protection if that is what is required. I prefer yellow lupins for that, and again I let them seed where I can, but they are good for incorporation too. I am not a big fan of using green manures for increasing OM after having done some trials a few years ago, but I do like the N fixation and soil texture improvement. Both germinate very easily from self-seeding and that could be a problem as @jd24 has pointed out.

 

[Little squeak]

I have just found this thread and it is of interest to me as I do have vetch growing on my arable land, my problem is that I cannot get RID of it. it must be a different type to what you are growing as it reproduces from rhizome roots which look alot more robust than your roots and a white in colour. Yes it does have nodules on its roots to fix nitrogen from the air and looks simlar in many ways to yours. Too much of it blocks the plough and grows above the barley blocking the combine. yes a little is OK as if you bale the straw dry (which is a lot harder when full of vetch) the animals love it.
I wil post pictures of it growing in the barley in another month as it's no where near as big as yours yet and the weedkiller has zapped it a little last week (but I'm sure it's not gone)

 

[jd24]

I have just found this thread and it is of interest to me as I do have vetch growing on my arable land, my problem is that I cannot get RID of it. it must be a different type to what you are growing as it reproduces from rhizome roots which look alot more robust than your roots and a white in colour. Yes it does have nodules on its roots to fix nitrogen from the air and looks simlar in many ways to yours. Too much of it blocks the plough and grows above the barley blocking the combine. yes a little is OK as if you bale the straw dry (which is a lot harder when full of vetch) the animals love it.
I wil post pictures of it growing in the barley in another month as it's no where near as big as yours yet and the weedkiller has zapped it a little last week (but I'm sure it's not gone)

Yeah this will be difficult if you have it in a crop. Like you said in small numbers it's okay but if it gets thick you'll need a side knife on your harvester. From what I have read they are extremely efficient at reseeding. I haven't come across a variety that regrows from its roots however some can withstand being lightly grazed/cut. If you allow them to flower you run the risk of reseeding. At this point I think the only option is to break the plants life cycle. I'm no expert but I would think you would be looking at grassing the problem fields and make sure no plants mature to flower by cutting or hard grazing. The seeds on hairy vetch are very hard and can survive in the ground for long periods apparently...
Send a picture if you can

 

[jd24]

I have a fair number of small scattered areas of vetch (probably criss-crosses) that grow naturally each year and I encourage them where appropriate by allowing them to set seed. This means that some of the N is diverted to the seed, but that is acceptable. I do not remember the details on temps for N fixation but do recall that the later the plant material is incorporated the more N will be fixed - prior to flowering.

As already posted there is not a lot of growth to be seen until temps begin to increase in the spring, so not the best of crops for winter soil protection if that is what is required. I prefer yellow lupins for that, and again I let them seed where I can, but they are good for incorporation too. I am not a big fan of using green manures for increasing OM after having done some trials a few years ago, but I do like the N fixation and soil texture improvement. Both germinate very easily from self-seeding and that could be a problem as @jd24 has pointed out.

Hi oldmacdonald why don't you like using green manures for organic matter? I'm trying to weigh up the positives and negatives. Any info appreciated

 

[Robigus]

Yeah it's a bit of a tricky one. Seed starts around £50/acre . So you want to get your money's worth...

They look really impressive. Could you not just keep some back for seed? Conventional vetch are easy to grow and royalty free. We've grown them plenty of time for a local seed merchant and now put a small block in occasionally to grow our own green cover seed. - Although I must admit that this year's look dreadful after the compleat lack of rain.

 

[Old McDonald]

Hi oldmacdonald why don't you like using green manures for organic matter? I'm trying to weigh up the positives and negatives. Any info appreciated

Here is the full response:

I think there will be very few people who will dispute that proper use of the land means maintaining an OM content of a few percentage points and that means using organic manures, but unfortunately they take time to produce, and it is extremely difficult, in fact normally impossible, to produce as much as you need. It also takes perhaps more years than you have available to build up depleted land from a starting point of only 1 to 2% OM in the soil to my own, totally scientifically unfounded opinion of a moderate level, and that is a minimum of 5%. I have seen a suggestion from Washington State University in the U.S. that 5% is adequate. Given that you cannot be certain how quickly it is being used up, and wanting to avoid testing every year, I am inclined to go for a wee bit more if possible. The figure of 2% is often given as an absolute minimum and I remember being told once upon a time that below 1% and your soil is dead. The worst test I have had was one of 1.3% in a mature olive grove in Portugal that had not received any input of soil nutrients for an unknown number of years. I have also seen it stated that there is no scientific evidence that 2% is a meaningful benchmark, but on the basis that some is necessary this figure is perhaps the best guideline and urgent action should be taken if a figure of less than 2% is obtained on analysis, whilst if it is 5% or more it is one less thing you need to worry about.


Certainly the area with only 1.3% on the Portuguese property proved to be a very difficult piece of ground. It had the appearance of a decent sandy loam when freshly cultivated, but like the rest of the place containing many stones. The topography suggests that it was the bed of the adjoining river away back in the dim and distant past, and the stones are water worn. It set very hard after rain or irrigation, water filtration and retention were extremely poor. Some weeds grew on it, but not in profusion, and very few different species. All in all the typical symptoms of a soil that lacks OM. The major part of it was in pasture for 4 years and grazed as frequently as possible with well-fed stock in order to increase the organic and soil nutrients content. It is now totally changed in character and is as good as it looks. The OM increased to 4.5% during these four years. This is the area where I grubbed out 71 olive trees and later replanted with 141. The remainder of the old grove, only a few hundred square yards, is the area with which I am still struggling and has been used for vegetable production for stock feed, with as much muck as possible applied to it, but it will need to be put to pasture too as soon as I can fit it into the overall scheme of things.


It is appropriate to note that during the time this particularly low OM content land was in pasture, I grew eight consecutive green manure crops on the land where we planted the other new olive grove of 299 trees, and the OM increased by only 0.3% from 2.7 to 3. These crops were well fertilised, well grown and cultivated into the soil.

...........................................................

I tried my best with those green manure crops (4 summer and 4 winter) and spent a fair bit of money on fertiliser and irrigation for them. I was sure I would dramatically raise the OM.

The pasture was mainly PRG and Haifa White clover with some Puna chicory and a few herbs. I do not have the details of the complete mix to hand and a quick search has resulted in failure to find it, but I do have it somewhere on the computer. I will look for it later as I need to access other info too.

S one-off test I know, but I will stick with the 4 years' pasture in future - Robert Elliott's Clifton Park grass phase.

 

[Little squeak]

Just got a few pictures here. The first one is vetch growing in the spring barley crop today, the second shows its rhizome roots the third are pods which has ended up in the barley sample from last year and the last is it opened showing the seed. I have sprayed the vetch sown in the barley with Pixxaro at .375l/ha and Thor at 10g /ha but it’s only knocked it back a little. The rhizome roots were that bad at sowing time when the cultivator dragged them to the end of the field I loaded them onto a cart with a fork to cart them off in the same way we used to do with couch grass before the advent of gylopsate in the 1970s (gylopsate doesn’t kill my type of vetch). I expect the seed to be viable but most of the regrowth to be by the rhizomes in the same way that couch grass reproduces.

I’m not sure if the barley benefits from the nitrogen that the vetch fixes and a small amount is good for the palatability of the straw but do watch out if yours reproduces from rhizomes like mine. As you will never get rid of it

 

[Little squeak]

don't know what happened with the pictures hope I have the rest here

 

[Old McDonald]

I haven't come across a variety that regrows from its roots however some can withstand being lightly grazed/cut.

I too have always accepted info from seed merchants and the occasioanl ag article that vetches in ag use are annuals but after reading @Little squeak's post about rhizomes decided to do some checking - mainly because I was interested in trying to identify it.

I found numerous references to various vetches , including Common and Hairy as being annuals, but some that said they were biennials. Also found a few that say they are both perennials spreading from rhizomes. When I get the opportunity I will see if I can find any of mine with rhizomes. They mainly appear to be a Common vetch type, but as earlier posted I suspect some natural crossing too.

 

[renewablejohn]

I have both blue and yellow vetch which are perennial, I think the yellow is quite rare.

 

[Old McDonald]

Just curious, but can you be more specific as to the vetches you have - i.e. botanical name? The reason I ask is that a local name just using a colour can mean several species over a wide area.

 

[renewablejohn]

Just curious, but can you be more specific as to the vetches you have - i.e. botanical name? The reason I ask is that a local name just using a colour can mean several species over a wide area.

Two vetches are Vicia Lutea and Vicia Cracca

 

[Old McDonald]

Thank you. I had seen them both in my searches. V. lutea is generally listed as an annual. I am beginning to think that they are all perennials given the chance. It would be interesting (to me, if nobody else) if all posters took a look at any vetch they have and see whether they produce rhizomes. Our attitude as farmers would completely change if we knew they are perennial and not annuals.

If it had not been for @Little squeak mentioning it in his post we might never have considered the possibility of using vetch as a perennial forage crop and N fixer. So thank you to him too. It has certainly got me thinking about using vetches on the trafficked ground between rows of fruit and nut trees. I had envisaged the need to plant annual N fixers - after I clean the land sufficient to not having to use as much knock-down sprays.

 

[renewablejohn]

Thank you. I had seen them both in my searches. V. lutea is generally listed as an annual. I am beginning to think that they are all perennials given the chance. It would be interesting (to me, if nobody else) if all posters took a look at any vetch they have and see whether they produce rhizomes. Our attitude as farmers would completely change if we knew they are perennial and not annuals.

If it had not been for @Little squeak mentioning it in his post we might never have considered the possibility of using vetch as a perennial forage crop and N fixer. So thank you to him too. It has certainly got me thinking about using vetches on the trafficked ground between rows of fruit and nut trees. I had envisaged the need to plant annual N fixers - after I clean the land sufficient to not having to use as much knock-down sprays.

Have not planted either vetch but both have been spreading through the grassland. When they flower I will collect seed from both so I can do trials in my deep beds.
Just had another look and the yellow vetch looks more like Lathyrus Pratensis rather than Lutea

 

[jd24]

Have not planted either vetch but both have been spreading through the grassland. When they flower I will collect seed from both so I can do trials in my deep beds.
Just had another look and the yellow vetch looks more like Lathyrus Pratensis rather than Lutea

Could you have crown vetch - Securigera varia? That appears to be a problem vetch.
PS my girlfriend will be very annoyed if I have planted a perennial weed in the veg patch. Hahaha

 

[jd24]

Could you have crown vetch - Securigera varia? That appears to be a problem vetch.
PS my girlfriend will be very annoyed if I have planted a perennial weed in the veg patch. Hahaha

So

Thank you. I had seen them both in my searches. V. lutea is generally listed as an annual. I am beginning to think that they are all perennials given the chance. It would be interesting (to me, if nobody else) if all posters took a look at any vetch they have and see whether they produce rhizomes. Our attitude as farmers would completely change if we knew they are perennial and not annuals.

If it had not been for @Little squeak mentioning it in his post we might never have considered the possibility of using vetch as a perennial forage crop and N fixer. So thank you to him too. It has certainly got me thinking about using vetches on the trafficked ground between rows of fruit and nut trees. I had envisaged the need to plant annual N fixers - after I clean the land sufficient to not having to use as much knock-down sprays.

My father worked on a cider apple orchard for 15 years and he told me they toyed with the idea of broadcasting clover but they never got to do it however they did do this on the small vineyard when they set it up. They burnt off the grass then broadcast short clover (can't remember it's name). They only had to mow a few times a year...