Watercourse Depth

[Jameshenry]

Anyone had a go at willow spiling to stop bank erosion? always fancied a go but not had the opportunity.

Spiling - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Yes done a bit to it on the river here on bad bends in the river, cut 4"-5" diameter lengths of willow and pushed them in with the digger and weaved in some branches , and filled in behind it with soil, all growing and no more erosion

 

[thesilentone]

Said exactly the same thing to visitor from one of the Environment divisions .. why don't they use remote controlled sluice gates linked to rain forcasts.

The observation was quickly dodged, "How about using some land for a wet land area ?" - to which I thought "Bog off".

We don't need remote controlled sluice gates if they are working properly....and their we have the conundrum...


You maybe mean floodgates ?

Many roads flood when the rivers rise. If you follow the road drainage systems, on the end you will find a seized/damaged/inoperable sluice gate.

You may have to dig below the drain pipe to find it !!

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Anyone had a go at willow spiling to stop bank erosion? always fancied a go but not had the opportunity.

Spiling - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

The Land "Friendly Brook" A Diversity of Creatures ​

When Julius Fabricius, Sub-Prefect of the Weald, In the days of Diocletian owned our Lower River-field, He called to him Hobdenius—a Briton of the Clay, Saying: "What about that River-piece for layin' in to hay?" And the aged Hobden answered: "I remember as a lad My father told your father that she wanted dreenin' bad. An' the more that you neeglect her the less you'll get her clean. Have it jest as you've a mind to, but, if I was you, I'd dreen." So they drained it long and crossways in the lavish Roman style — Still we find among the river-drift their flakes of ancient tile, And in drouthy middle August, when the bones of meadows show, We can trace the lines they followed sixteen hundred years ago. Then Julius Fabricius died as even Prefects do, And after certain centuries, Imperial Rome died too. Then did robbers enter Britain from across the Northern main And our Lower River-field was won by Ogier the Dane. Well could Ogier work his war-boat—well could Ogier wield his brand— Much he knew of foaming waters—not so much of farming land. So he called to him a Hobden of the old unaltered blood, Saying: "What about that River-piece; she doesn't look no good ?" And that aged Hobden answered "'Tain't for me to interfere. But I've known that bit o' meadow now for five and fifty year. Have it jest as you've a mind to, but I've proved it time on ' time, If you want to change her nature you have got to give her lime!" Ogier sent his wains to Lewes, twenty hours' solemn walk, And drew back great abundance of the cool, grey, healing chalk. And old Hobden spread it broadcast, never heeding what was in't— Which is why in cleaning ditches, now and then we find a flint. Ogier died. His sons grew English—Anglo-Saxon was their name— Till out of blossomed Normandy another pirate came; For Duke William conquered England and divided with his men, And our Lower River-field he gave to William of Warenne. But the Brook (you know her habit) rose one rainy autumn night And tore down sodden flitches of the bank to left and right. So, said William to his Bailiff as they rode their dripping rounds: "Hob, what about that River-bit—the Brook's got up no bounds ?" And that aged Hobden answered: "'Tain't my business to advise, But ye might ha' known 'twould happen from the way the valley lies. Where ye can't hold back the water you must try and save the sile. Hev it jest as you've a mind to, but, if I was you, I'd spile!" They spiled along the water-course with trunks of willow-trees, And planks of elms behind 'em and immortal oaken knees. And when the spates of Autumn whirl the gravel-beds away You can see their faithful fragments, iron-hard in iron clay. Georgii Quinti Anno Sexto, I, who own the River-field, Am fortified with title-deeds, attested, signed and sealed, Guaranteeing me, my assigns, my executors and heirs All sorts of powers and profits which—are neither mine nor theirs, I have rights of chase and warren, as my dignity requires. I can fish—but Hobden tickles—I can shoot—but Hobden wires. I repair, but he reopens, certain gaps which, men allege, Have been used by every Hobden since a Hobden swapped a hedge. Shall I dog his morning progress o'er the track-betraying dew ? Demand his dinner-basket into which my pheasant flew ? Confiscate his evening faggot under which my conies ran, And summons him to judgment ? I would sooner summons Pan. His dead are in the churchyard—thirty generations laid. Their names were old in history when Domesday Book was made; And the passion and the piety and prowess of his line Have seeded, rooted, fruited in some land the Law calls mine. Not for any beast that burrows, not for any bird that flies, Would I lose his large sound counsel, miss his keen amending eyes. He is bailiff, woodman, wheelwright, field-surveyor, engineer, And if flagrantly a poacher—'tain't for me to interfere. "Hob, what about that River-bit ?" I turn to him again, With Fabricius and Ogier and William of Warenne. "Hev it jest as you've a mind to, but"—and here he takes command. For whoever pays the taxes old Mus' Hobden owns the land.

 

[Tubbylew]

When Julius Fabricius, Sub-Prefect of the Weald, In the days of Diocletian owned our Lower River-field, He called to him Hobdenius—a Briton of the Clay, Saying: "What about that River-piece for layin' in to hay?" And the aged Hobden answered: "I remember as a lad My father told your father that she wanted dreenin' bad. An' the more that you neeglect her the less you'll get her clean. Have it jest as you've a mind to, but, if I was you, I'd dreen." So they drained it long and crossways in the lavish Roman style — Still we find among the river-drift their flakes of ancient tile, And in drouthy middle August, when the bones of meadows show, We can trace the lines they followed sixteen hundred years ago. Then Julius Fabricius died as even Prefects do, And after certain centuries, Imperial Rome died too. Then did robbers enter Britain from across the Northern main And our Lower River-field was won by Ogier the Dane. Well could Ogier work his war-boat—well could Ogier wield his brand— Much he knew of foaming waters—not so much of farming land. So he called to him a Hobden of the old unaltered blood, Saying: "What about that River-piece; she doesn't look no good ?" And that aged Hobden answered "'Tain't for me to interfere. But I've known that bit o' meadow now for five and fifty year. Have it jest as you've a mind to, but I've proved it time on ' time, If you want to change her nature you have got to give her lime!" Ogier sent his wains to Lewes, twenty hours' solemn walk, And drew back great abundance of the cool, grey, healing chalk. And old Hobden spread it broadcast, never heeding what was in't— Which is why in cleaning ditches, now and then we find a flint. Ogier died. His sons grew English—Anglo-Saxon was their name— Till out of blossomed Normandy another pirate came; For Duke William conquered England and divided with his men, And our Lower River-field he gave to William of Warenne. But the Brook (you know her habit) rose one rainy autumn night And tore down sodden flitches of the bank to left and right. So, said William to his Bailiff as they rode their dripping rounds: "Hob, what about that River-bit—the Brook's got up no bounds ?" And that aged Hobden answered: "'Tain't my business to advise, But ye might ha' known 'twould happen from the way the valley lies. Where ye can't hold back the water you must try and save the sile. Hev it jest as you've a mind to, but, if I was you, I'd spile!" They spiled along the water-course with trunks of willow-trees, And planks of elms behind 'em and immortal oaken knees. And when the spates of Autumn whirl the gravel-beds away You can see their faithful fragments, iron-hard in iron clay. Georgii Quinti Anno Sexto, I, who own the River-field, Am fortified with title-deeds, attested, signed and sealed, Guaranteeing me, my assigns, my executors and heirs All sorts of powers and profits which—are neither mine nor theirs, I have rights of chase and warren, as my dignity requires. I can fish—but Hobden tickles—I can shoot—but Hobden wires. I repair, but he reopens, certain gaps which, men allege, Have been used by every Hobden since a Hobden swapped a hedge. Shall I dog his morning progress o'er the track-betraying dew ? Demand his dinner-basket into which my pheasant flew ? Confiscate his evening faggot under which my conies ran, And summons him to judgment ? I would sooner summons Pan. His dead are in the churchyard—thirty generations laid. Their names were old in history when Domesday Book was made; And the passion and the piety and prowess of his line Have seeded, rooted, fruited in some land the Law calls mine. Not for any beast that burrows, not for any bird that flies, Would I lose his large sound counsel, miss his keen amending eyes. He is bailiff, woodman, wheelwright, field-surveyor, engineer, And if flagrantly a poacher—'tain't for me to interfere. "Hob, what about that River-bit ?" I turn to him again, With Fabricius and Ogier and William of Warenne. "Hev it jest as you've a mind to, but"—and here he takes command. For whoever pays the taxes old Mus' Hobden owns the land.

Thats where I heard the term first, can never make my mind up wether I like the poem or not, maybe I feel like a bit too much like a hobden myself, particularly when I'm working my socks off under a hedge whilst being overlooked by clients who maybe awfuly welll educated and wealthy, but ain't got an ounce of common sense.

 

[DrWazzock]

Just returning to the problem of my ditches cutting ever deeper, would it be worth me reprofiling them to create a wider flatter shallower ditch bottom to effectively reduce speed for the same flow? As it is the sides have become very steep, almost vertical in places with an extremely narrow fast flowing channel cutting down into the subsoil and even under cutting the banks which have nearly met and bridged over in places as if the steam is becoming subterranean. What I thought I might do is scrape banks to a shallower slope and put the spoil in the bottom of the channel effectively making it shallower and wider ordwill this be an even bigger problem? I have noticed that lengths that have a much wider flatter channel bottom seem to retain a sensible amount of silt and dint cut down to the bedrock/gravel.
Ive tried dams with limited success.

 

[Kevtherev]

can you pipe them @DrWazzock ?

 

[Ffermer Bach]

There are lots of white stones here , I have collected them up and put them as leaky dams in the ditches there to stop erosion, and it's worked well.

 

[Oliveau]

Just returning to the problem of my ditches cutting ever deeper, would it be worth me reprofiling them to create a wider flatter shallower ditch bottom to effectively reduce speed for the same flow? As it is the sides have become very steep, almost vertical in places with an extremely narrow fast flowing channel cutting down into the subsoil and even under cutting the banks which have nearly met and bridged over in places as if the steam is becoming subterranean. What I thought I might do is scrape banks to a shallower slope and put the spoil in the bottom of the channel effectively making it shallower and wider ordwill this be an even bigger problem? I have noticed that lengths that have a much wider flatter channel bottom seem to retain a sensible amount of silt and dint cut down to the bedrock/gravel.
Ive tried dams with limited success.

I like your thinking. Shallow and wide should slow the flow.

 

[Kevtherev]

You could put block stones in in places to make riffles but it may cut worse on the other side of the boulders.

 

[DrWazzock]

The EA probably wouldn’t approve of piping it. I reckon it would need at least a 2.5 feet diameter pipe and then it still might choke.
Dams are tricky. They seem to either cut round or more likely underneath. I might try them again though. Even with dams (which are leaky) the ditch bed seems to scour and carry shut in suspension over the dams. I’ve noticed watercourses in the area that carry higher volumes are just wider flatter and shallower, but i’m a bit concerned I might make an even bigger mess trying to achieve this. Tempted to give it a go though on a particular length.

 

[Wisconsonian]

Leave it be, what's the problem with a deep fast stream? The water will seek it's equilibrium between the speed cutting deeper and the depth taking away the gradient, until the mountains are washed away.

There is a constant building up of sections from erosion depositing material, and then digging down as that gets carried away. Having never been to Linconlshire, I'll have to guess this waterway has been straightened or otherwise altered and the straight section doesn't have the length the original meanders had, so the gradient is steeper, and the coarser aggregate is no longer in the bed. In that case concrete dams will take the drop and lessen the scouring.

 

[DrWazzock]

It probably doesn’t really matter. But it’s an interesting thing. I reckon if you cut a very narrow channel bottom on soft subsoil it will self deepen till it gets down to something harder - gravel in our case. Make the channel with a wide bottom and it self fills with silt and needs regular cleaning if it’s not to spill over and turn itself into a water meadow/wetland. There isn’t a state that suits my purposes. Either it will always need cleaning out or it will always be too deep. I’d rather it always needed cleaning out as the very deep channel tends to result in bank, tree and hedge collapse and is a danger to livestock and to extent machinery.

 

[organicguy]

Is your land flat or steep?
All our ditches are gently sloping so we get silt deposited so try to keep ditch bottoms narrow to self scour.
Where we have a steep gravel track I cut wide flat gutters to slow the flow into the ditch to deposit the silt which works well.
Do you need to slow the flow into your ditches ie hold it back on the land, zero surface run off, so the flow in your ditch is less for longer.
Certainly with global warming rain incidents are much heavier with puts flow rates up.

 

[DrWazzock]

Here we see, a year later, about 18” depth of sediment retained by my amateur dam and the sediment front even extending downstream of the dam. Flow is left to right. So the incorporation of just one crude restriction has added 18” of sediment to the watercourse bed. I’m happy with that as it was self scouring stupidly deep leading to bank collapse. Next step is the cast in concrete a better type of flow restrictor which will also attenuate storm surges.

 

[ollie989898]

My first thought is that if a stretch of a water course is changing along the part you own then it is possible the fellow upstream of you have changed something. See this on the coast all the time- a wealthy part of the country builds groynes to retain the sediment, some poor soul further along the coast loses their supply of sediment so the cliffs start to get washed away.

 

[DrWazzock]

My first thought is that if a stretch of a water course is changing along the part you own then it is possible the fellow upstream of you have changed something. See this on the coast all the time- a wealthy part of the country builds groynes to retain the sediment, some poor soul further along the coast loses their supply of sediment so the cliffs start to get washed away.

The fellow upstream has cleaned his ditches out which is helping me reduce my watercourse depth (and widening the bed as it comes up). I’m holding back the silt released. It’s about getting a happy medium. Once his ditching work has settled there will be less silt coming down but I hope by then I’ve retained enough to restore my watercourse bed levels to something sensible. Long term we don’t seem to have been getting enough deposition. High and intense rain events have scoured the bottoms out of the watercourses. Maybe they were also dug too deep and narrow? Self deepening to stupidly deep depths has been noticeable since measures were taken to reduce field run off using buffer strips etc. I only want the bed depth to be just below outfall depth, not like the Grand Canyon. An old neighbour reckoned it all went wrong when somebody got a dragline in years ago and dug the bottoms out of the ditches creating a very deep narrow channel instead of a shallower wider less scouring channel.

 

[renewablejohn]

The fellow upstream has cleaned his ditches out which is helping me reduce my watercourse depth (and widening the bed as it comes up). I’m holding back the silt released. It’s about getting a happy medium. Once his ditching work has settled there will be less silt coming down but I hope by then I’ve retained enough to restore my watercourse bed levels to something sensible. Long term we don’t seem to have been getting enough deposition. High and intense rain events have scoured the bottoms out of the watercourses. Maybe they were also dug too deep and narrow? Self deepening to stupidly deep depths has been noticeable since measures were taken to reduce field run off using buffer strips etc. I only want the bed depth to be just below outfall depth, not like the Grand Canyon. An old neighbour reckoned it all went wrong when somebody got a dragline in years ago and dug the bottoms out of the ditches creating a very deep narrow channel instead of a shallower wider less scouring channel.

Think your problem in Lincolnshire is the volume of groundwater being taken out is far more than it used to be. Our relations still own the brick pits on the east coast of lincs and they have seriously been screwed by salt water ingress due to fresh water pumping. Find your nearest bore hole and start monitoring on a weekly basis without this information our family would not have been able to sort the problem out.