What variables cause lamb twins/singles/triplets

[rhysjj]

As the title says, what causes triplets singles etc.. is it alot to do with food quality/quantity. Or is it mostly breed? Thanks

 

[ladycrofter]

We have an old melanistic blackface, so literally a black blackie. Every year without fail, she produces twin male lambs. Must be a genetic thing.

 

[JockCroft]

That's a really difficult question to answer. Presume you mean Sheep.

Then no 1 is breeding.

Other factors are so variable, nutrition before during after and around mid term are in my opinion affected also by weather. Handling , treatments during the same period can have an effect. Disease, Lameness and infections will reduce lamb numbers. The age of breeding stock is also a factor. Tups as well as ewes. Grazing ground, shelter, time of breeding.

The "List" of causes of lost foetus's is endless and often un quantifiable and un provable. Were they even there?

Better to make the best of what you get than worry about what you think should be.
If you have a serious problem then get your Vet involved.

 

[ladycrofter]

A good but often overlooked point made above - sheep must be scanned. How many singles started out as twins? Then one resorbed or spat out very early for, as said, one of many reasons?

We run mainly Cheviots and Blackies. Triplets are a rare and unwelcome thing. So that's breed related? Can't say I know anyone different from that.

 

[JockCroft]

We have an old melanistic blackface, so literally a black blackie. Every year without fail, she produces twin male lambs. Must be a genetic thing.

Slightly opposite, Mrs has pet black Greyface, coming to her 6th lambing here, so far always a big male single, look terrific lambs. Funny they grow great until July then eat like hell all winter, don't weigh great or finish easily.
Last years lamb of a month ago, only 43kg. Bugger was that weight in July. Probably should have kept longer to get flesh on him but it was his breeding.

Her Sister (normal colour) always had twin ewe lambs which have made big strong ewes. Only problem 3 already culled for bad udders.

 

[JockCroft]

A good but often overlooked point made above - sheep must be scanned. How many singles started out as twins? Then one resorbed or spat out very early for, as said, one of many reasons?

We run mainly Cheviots and Blackies. Triplets are a rare and unwelcome thing. So that's breed related? Can't say I know anyone different from that.

I don't scan, as cant separate bunches pre lambing.
I also was influenced years ago by old clients that handling for scanning is too early for later tupped and can cause a small percentage of Yeild's.
I think personally its finding what works for each of us and our ground. I would like many more pairs reared, but lot of our flock are hill cheviots or first cross off them, so 2/3 of them have singles.

How you finding your ewes just now. Are they holding body condition so far?

By the way are you on the coast or inland?

 

[Tim W]

Genetics give you the potential
Environment defines how much of the potential you achieve

My sheep can get tupped on ;

• good dairy leys ---190%
• old parkland----175%
• 1000ft on the downs ----165%

All the same genetics

 

[sheepdogtrail]

For me it is 98% nutrition. That is the quality and amount of food the ewe eats prior to the start of the third trimester. The other 2% is a mix between genetics and social dynamics within the herd. I can tell you that in my ewes, almost all of them have at least three eggs fertilized. However, only about 10% of them will have three lambs. 80% of them have two lambs. The remaining 10% is either a single or quads.

I know this as I harvest my cull ewes myself and almost always find 3 little fetus in the first trimester.

 

[Estate fencing.]

We have 1000 mule ewes (all the same sheep bought from the same places) 200 that live on a harder farm have no grass to flush on so tup on roots, they scanned 29% (245 compared to 216%) higher than the ewes tupped on good grass. The real intresting bit was that the yearling where run together for both groups until the day the tups went in the split onto good grass and roots, the ones on root had 45% triplets and the grass ones had 20% triplets. Also the ewes on roots had no empty’s compared to 2% grass. I always though flushing releases more eggs but now I think the good food means they don’t reabsorb lambs early on.

 

[sheepdogtrail]

What you write seems similar to my mule ewes as well but in my case with Red Clover. Ewes fed mostly red clover stockpiled during tupping lamb at 235% +/- depending on the year. I have thought about in the past and at that time what made sense to me is that some forages with high energy (sugar) feel the craving to eat sooner, therefore the ewes have a smaller tank that metabolizes quicker which puts a downward drive on the ewes appetite. In the end, a less full rumen allows more fetuses to implant to the wall as their would be more space to attach and survive. Perhaps.

 

[Global ovine]

Genetics give you the potential
Environment defines how much of the potential you achieve

My sheep can get tupped on ;

• good dairy leys ---190%
• old parkland----175%
• 1000ft on the downs ----165%

All the same genetics

The environmental influence having the most affect on reproductive rate is body weight. The largest factor confusing this is trace element deficiency, especially Selenium.
Superimposed upon this can be disease incidence which can vary depending upon flock immunity by natural exposure pre-pregnancy (eg. Border Disease) or by vaccination (eg. Toxoplasmosis). A large outbreak in a naive flock can be the most significant difference to like genetics and like nutritional status.

Genetics for higher lambing rate and easy birthing remains the no.1 first requirement for success. And that is controlled by the breeder of the tups used to breed the ewe flock.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

We have 1000 mule ewes (all the same sheep bought from the same places) 200 that live on a harder farm have no grass to flush on so tup on roots, they scanned 29% (245 compared to 216%) higher than the ewes tupped on good grass. The real intresting bit was that the yearling where run together for both groups until the day the tups went in the split onto good grass and roots, the ones on root had 45% triplets and the grass ones had 20% triplets. Also the ewes on roots had no empty’s compared to 2% grass. I always though flushing releases more eggs but now I think the good food means they don’t reabsorb lambs early on.

I’m sure you’re right, broadly speaking a mule has the potential to scan at 240% which is far too many for me. I’ve learnt you have to try and manage that by how you keep them. I used to flush them and scan up to 230% which is a reason I went off them. I was wrong though, I was being to good to them. My mules this year were tupped on fairly bearish grass fields and have scanned at 188% and that’s all shearlings. Some people will leave lambs on until September which is another way of doing it, although I think that reduces the lamb growth but if you’re selling stores??

If you have a ewe that’s bred to be prolific like a mule, then it comes down to management to a considerable extent

 

[JD-Kid]

The environmental influence having the most affect on reproductive rate is body weight. The largest factor confusing this is trace element deficiency, especially Selenium.
Superimposed upon this can be disease incidence which can vary depending upon flock immunity by natural exposure pre-pregnancy (eg. Border Disease) or by vaccination (eg. Toxoplasmosis). A large outbreak in a naive flock can be the most significant difference to like genetics and like nutritional status.

Genetics for higher lambing rate and easy birthing remains the no.1 first requirement for success. And that is controlled by the breeder of the tups used to breed the ewe flock.

totally agree we now dose our ewes twice pre mating with a min and vitamin drench seen scanning and tailing % life in both higher repeat lambing ewes and ones that in past have been lower % scanning over life time
thats even with about same weight at mating avg of 69-70 kg
only thing we do find is hoggets and 2 tooths do seem to have higher losses scanning to lambing % even tho both having toxo and campy vax program dont realy settle down until 4 tooths

 

[neilo]

As the title says, what causes triplets singles etc.. is it alot to do with food quality/quantity. Or is it mostly breed? Thanks

I would suggest it's all of the above.

Incidentally, I have a bought-in Exlana ewe that had quins last year, in a flock that scanned at 160%. She was herself one of a quad, out of a quad, out of a quad. I think there might some weird sh1t going on with prolificacy genes in there somewhere.

This year, the same flock of sheep were in better condition, not having suffered with the drought, on top of trace elements and heamonchus better, and having good haylage on the shite grass through tupping, scanned at 182% (& that hyperprolific ewe is scanned for twins ).

 

[Bury the Trash]

How often to mineral drench?

Would like to think so, but suspect it's a very long process. You should soon know. Maybe @Global ovine / @easyram1 can confirm, but I heard that the NZ Texel breeder that everyone raves about (1000 ewes part time & less than £100 V&M) has a Selenium problem that causes losses, but doesn't...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

crops up so much that its selenium and cobalt as one of our big bug bears

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

How often to mineral drench?

Would like to think so, but suspect it's a very long process. You should soon know. Maybe @Global ovine / @easyram1 can confirm, but I heard that the NZ Texel breeder that everyone raves about (1000 ewes part time & less than £100 V&M) has a Selenium problem that causes losses, but doesn't...

thefarmingforum.co.uk

crops up so much that its selenium and cobalt as one of our big bug bears

One of the best investments you can make is addressing TE deficiencies

 

[Bury the Trash]

One of the best investments you can make is addressing TE deficiencies

Indeed, but how to address them in the most effective,way is the constant challenge.

 

[Aspiring Peasants]

Indeed, but how to address them in the most effective,way is the constant challenge.

I’ve found bolussing has sorted ours out.

 

[dogjon]

We have selected for twinning for about 40 yrs. No access to scanning here but I can pretty well predict our lambing percentage, both as a group and individually, by body condition score at breeding.