What would you want from a day workshop on water issues

[Henarar]

I wouldn't even say nudge, more insult.

and not at all set up

 

[delilah]

Im not sure ELMs is set up to reward - more nudge.

I fully agree - our rivers and streams are completely f...ed. And riparian margins of a decent width are vital - and it needs to be seen as essential not something half arsed, With payment rates for fencing being a third of cost currently - even fencing a narrow riparian margin is unlikely now - and I keep putting the query to farmers about how much they would accept to make wider margins - and these are progressive farmers who are doing their best - and the offering is not enough - Water companies need to step up and put their money where their mouth is

Well, if it doesn't reward then the issues you highlight will only continue.

@Janet Hughes Defra

 

[AnnieT]

I would go to a workshop that could tell me what I could do by myself reasonably cheaply to help water quality without needing anyone's permission, being part of an enviro scheme , or claiming any grants.

A bit reminiscent of the old FWAG approach

A demonstration of how to measure infiltration rate.

Discussion of riparian margin effectiveness and design.

Discussion around how to avoid compaction rather than just mitigating it with cultivation.

Soil health assessment fiance with practical demonstration.

Check out if there are any farm cluster groups near you - these groups bring farmers together to discuss issues between them/ work together on dealing with the transition/ support each other on knowledge gaps

 

[AnnieT]

Well, if it doesn't reward then the issues you highlight will only continue.

@Janet Hughes Defra

Yep, I know, its a shame isnt it

 

[AnnieT]

I would go to a workshop that could tell me what I could do by myself reasonably cheaply to help water quality without needing anyone's permission, being part of an enviro scheme , or claiming any grants.

A bit reminiscent of the old FWAG approach.

Join/ Start a farm cluster group in your area - work/ talk to other farmers

 

[ollie989898]

What exact issues with water are there?

 

[AnnieT]

Yep, I know, its a shame isnt it

Theres lots of talk - its been going on forever - about landscape scale/ wildlife corridors/ water pollution/ water shortages - and one of the most obvious answers is to restore all stream and river corridors - with margins that will work - ideally 3d/ wetted/ wide - minimum 20m - If all funding went into ensuring that was possible - we'd see some truely positive impacts for everyone on everything - but we still have minimal margins, poorly managed because the incentive isnt there - developments are allowed only 8m from rivers edge - I fully endorse the comment that we should recognise its not just farmers infact there are some bigger culprits!!

 

[ollie989898]

Theres lots of talk - its been going on forever - about landscape scale/ wildlife corridors/ water pollution/ water shortages - and one of the most obvious answers is to restore all stream and river corridors - with margins that will work - ideally 3d/ wetted/ wide - minimum 20m - If all funding went into ensuring that was possible - we'd see some truely positive impacts for everyone on everything - but we still have minimal margins, poorly managed because the incentive isnt there - developments are allowed only 8m from rivers edge - I fully endorse the comment that we should recognise its not just farmers infact there are some bigger culprits!!

20 metre margins- not ideal for the smaller fields down in places like Devon where a 20 metre margin isn't workable.

 

[AnnieT]

What exact issues with water are there?

Hi - is that a query for now - or for a workshop

 

[AnnieT]

20 metre margins- not ideal for the smaller fields down in places like Devon where a 20 metre margin isn't workable.

I know it would be site specific - out of interest - why wouldnt it be wotrkable?

 

[ollie989898]

Hi - is that a query for now - or for a workshop

I was just asking in general.

 

[ollie989898]

I know it would be site specific - out of interest - why wouldnt it be wotrkable?

If you have small fields and suddenly insist farmers leave a 20 metre margin, you could be talking significant portions of fields become basically unfarmable as the remainder is too small/awkward to use machinery in effectively.

 

[AnnieT]

I was just asking in general.

I was just asking in general.

The main issues with water - silt pollution from runoff from road/ fields/ tacks - any hard surface water lands on - if it ends up in the river/ straems it covers the gravels and creates habitats that wont support the invertebrates and fish. It blocks the drains increasing flooding issues and it carries pollutants which also end up in the water - through chemical use by water courses - be that from farming/ development/ manufacture/ car cleaning/ gardening/. pets. We also have too much water coming through the catchments too fast because all the ground/ wetlands/ woodlands that slowed this water have been drasitically reduced/ damaged -= leading to major flooding or we have droughts and no water stored in the landscape by the ground/ wetlands/ woodlands to replenish out rivers and streams/ aquifers/. The sewage overflows are another issue - made worse by climate change impacts on rain fall, old draoinage, over use of water by people - thats a limited in detail/ non exhaustive explanation.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

What exact issues with water are there?

 

[DrWazzock]

The main issues with water - silt pollution from runoff from road/ fields/ tacks - any hard surface water lands on - if it ends up in the river/ straems it covers the gravels and creates habitats that wont support the invertebrates and fish. It blocks the drains increasing flooding issues and it carries pollutants which also end up in the water - through chemical use by water courses - be that from farming/ development/ manufacture/ car cleaning/ gardening/. pets. We also have too much water coming through the catchments too fast because all the ground/ wetlands/ woodlands that slowed this water have been drasitically reduced/ damaged -= leading to major flooding or we have droughts and no water stored in the landscape by the ground/ wetlands/ woodlands to replenish out rivers and streams/ aquifers/. The sewage overflows are another issue - made worse by climate change impacts on rain fall, old draoinage, over use of water by people - thats a limited in detail/ non exhaustive explanation.

I see what you are saying but the landscape here has had underdrains and “improved” watercourses to serve as drainage waterways rather than habitat for about 400 years. So why suddenly are we saying there is a problem?
If it’s the case that peoples houses are now being flooded more regularly then you have to ask why this is becoming a more common problem. Is it because houses are being built in unsuitable locations? The population is much greater now than it was and there is pressure for building land and also land for food production. If we displace either building or food production to make way for more natural water environments then who is going to give up their building / home or means of food production and do we continue to support such a large population with loss of those resources/land? Personally I think we are so far down the road of a human managed landscape that it’s almost impossible to turn back to clock and retreat from the land leaving it to nature to sort out, without some kind of drastic reduction in population. They didn’t drain the fens for fun. Even 400 years ago with a much smaller population we needed that land resource to feed people. We now rely on dukes and drains and pumps as a life support system. If we let all that go back to nature and swamps we return to a very haphazard existence and will quickly find that such natural systems will not sustain the present human population.

 

[AnnieT]

Thanks so much for sharing that

 

[DrWazzock]

And here since glaciers retreated from this valley we have been up to our knees in sand. It blows, it erodes it contains seams of fairly toxic but useful iron ore. There are no gravel beds on the bottom of streams here, just sand or blue marine clay. The landscape is ever changing, it never was something out of a William Morris design manual. And actually when you take a balanced view of human and wildlife needs it’s actually not bad at all.

 

[DrWazzock]

I’m quite willing to put 12 to 24 m grass buffers along my watercourses though. You’d think that would be a standard option on ELMS or CS but it isn’t so the conclusion I draw is that the government isn’t actually that bothered for all the hot air.
I’ll do it gradually, voluntarily for hay production but damned if I’m doing it for nothing.

 

[AnnieT]

I see what you are saying but the landscape here has had underdrains and “improved” watercourses to serve as drainage waterways rather than habitat for about 400 years. So why suddenly are we saying there is a problem?
If it’s the case that peoples houses are now being flooded more regularly then you have to ask why this is becoming a more common problem. Is it because houses are being built in unsuitable locations? The population is much greater now than it was and there is pressure for building land and also land for food production. If we displace either building or food production to make way for more natural water environments then who is going to give up their building / home or means of food production and do we continue to support such a large population with loss of those resources/land? Personally I think we are so far down the road of a human managed landscape that it’s almost impossible to turn back to clock and retreat from the land leaving it to nature to sort out, without some kind of drastic reduction in population. They didn’t drain the fens for fun. Even 400 years ago with a much smaller population we needed that land resource to feed people. We now rely on dukes and drains and pumps as a life support system. If we let all that go back to nature and swamps we return to a very haphazard existence and will quickly find that such natural systems will not sustain the present human population.

Im just watching the Groundswell video shared by Howellcourt farm - very good, worth watching. Interestingly - well managed soils and tree canopy are more effective at holding back water than wetlands according to university research - not watched it all yet - Adaptation is an important concept - I dont have all the answers, I wish I did - and farming to me is the last proper british industry, I love farming but Im still smarting from the loss of all our small farms - I would be 3rd generation farmer but all land and buidlings (worked hard for from tenancy to ownership) have gone as they were too small to stand up to the modern onslaught of huge land management areas and I was certainly not got to plead with family who had worked themselves hard into crooked, tired old people suffering from years of hard stressful work - not to sell up and make sure they were sorted for old age. That why the cluster groups and farmers working togewther is so important - protect our smaller farmers and learn to adapt together -

 

[teslacoils]

I'd like to go to one where i dont feel I've just been patronised for half a day, before being let out with a sweetie and a pat on the head for being good.