Who should be maintaining drains?

[Kevtherev]

Without a picture or map difficult to make out on here.
I would do a site visit and go from there only fair to see it in real time to then make a decision on what’s best to do.
Where are you located?

 

[Dry Rot]

Drainage disputes are notoriously expensive. It only took 30 years to get mine sorted and I'm a surveyor! Why ask a load of farmers for advice about the law? Wouldn't your questions be best directed towards your lawyer? I assume you are consulting a firm of agricultural lawyers or chartered surveyors? (There is a difference but some firms will have both).

 

[Kevtherev]

Solicitors will make a right meal of things like this so make sure you get sound advice beforehand.

 

[Will Blackburn]

Yes, it's not a natural watercourse.
It's a man made pond.

Just because it’s in a pipe now doesn’t mean it has never been a natural watercourse!
Just because you built up a berm over a piped natural watercourse that right of flow alters.
The fact all this water collects on your property means you should be looking to pass this abundance on (down hill)

 

[GeorgeK]

I am asking to be pointed to where the law sets outs the responsibility.

You are concentrating on 'natural flow' whereas we may be talking about a 'watercourse' which can be man made and piped underground, in which case you are responsible for maintaining it and keeping it flowing. The web pages below may be worth looking at for further information.

Remember solicitors will say whatever they think will get them some work, not what is necessarily the best course of action for the individual. You don't repeat DON'T want solicitors getting involved you'd be better off chewing a new drain in with your bare teeth.

Owning a watercourse

Your responsibilities and rules to follow for watercourses on or near your property, and permissions you need to do work around them.

www.gov.uk

You normally own a stretch of watercourse that runs on or under your land.
A watercourse can be a culvert. A culvert is an underground structure that water can flow through.
You have responsibilities for the stretch of watercourse you own.
You may have to remove blockages, fallen trees or overhanging branches from your watercourse, or cut back trees and shrubs on the bank, if they could: reduce the flow or cause flooding to other landowners’ property – you may have to pay damages if they do

Culverts

Culverts are used to divert or drain water from land above it. They are enclosed watercourses and may be quite large. Find out who's responsible for them.

www.landregistryservices.com

Culverts are used to divert or drain water from land above it. They are enclosed watercourses and may be quite large. Responsibility to maintain a culvert is usually with the landowner for that part of it that is on the owner's land. This may be difficult if it is an old one and is buried beneath the ground and not visible.

 

[Pennine Ploughing]

I would say you have to take the water, and deal with it,
However ask yourself why it was the man made pond built to start with, was it a head of water for drinking stock on your land or below your land, or maybe even a source of water to power a turbine on your property in the past, best way is to find out why.
As it would of been built for a reason of some sort years before.

Might be best to tell the pond owner you have found out that many years ago it was used to power a small turbine, and your going to use the water for that purpose again, sort of green energy thingy, buy a small shipping container, put it on your land and dig a trench up to close to the man hole, and leave it for now, Farmer will soon divert the water away from you to stop you doing it, everyone is a winner ,

If you involve solicitors, the costs will spiral out of control and no one will win, plus it will be a black mark against your property as a neighbours dispute in years to come.

Ps, the OP has had some good advice from posters on here, even though it is worth what you paid for it, don't get so sucked in by it all and end up costing you loads of wonga heart ache and suffering over it, but look at the most cost effective way of sorting it for everyone

 

[mixed breed]

@Garnet
Trying to piece together a plan from the description, it would appear the flow does head for your property, you speak of a pipe from his pool going under the lane to an inspection chamber on your "lawn" or verge, there is then a pipe (from this chamber I take it) on your ground that has been jetted unsuccessfully. To me it sounds like this is the out flow, why else would it be piped under the lane and an inspection chamber be there?

It sounds like it has been boiling up on the lane and finding a route that way, now that has been fixed the water has to follow it's original route. The fact it's flooding your land suggests your on the recieving (lower) side of the equation and the pipes on your land sound like they need attention.

They may be old, out of service and all blocked up, but there lies the issue, the fact no-one knows where they go is irrelevant, a good man with a digger would soon find them and sort the issue.

 

[br jones]

Ofcourse it's our water!
Collecting from our imaginary pond we don't have, off our 36 acres we don't have to collect it from.
Yes, ofcourse!
Maybe we should just put in a legal claim for his pond and call it ours.
Instead of having an attitude problem, you could actually be helpful if you believe we're in the wrong, by giving a link to the legislation that shows we're responsible, rather than just being an a*s.
Because so far, the legal advice we have been given, from people who have seen the pics and plan of the property, say otherwise.
There was no flooding of anywhere before he started digging around in our absence, removing pipes and digging trenches on land he had no right to trespass on.
And if you think we're such A holes, would you like me to tell you the story of the time when he booked diggers to come onto our land, without permission or an easement, to lay himself some new water pipes,in a new location, to supply two premises, instead of putting them on his own land.
According to him, it would be quicker and cheaper to just dig them across our land, than it would be to take them across his land, so he set about to do that without even asking, planning on taking down part of our fence and all to do so.
That's what we're dealing with here, and we have on every occasion with dealing with him, been polite and patient, not wanting to cause bad blood.
On the flip side, he just goes about doing whatever he pleases, even if it entails trespass on the sly and sneaking utilities onto others land, to save himself a pound and some time, so we're not the A-holes here.

Dig a hole and cut and seal the water pipes he put acrooss your ground ,if he had no permission

 

[Wombat]

Dig a hole and cut and seal the water pipes he put acrooss your ground ,if he had no permission

Or shove a bag of postcrete up them

 

[Ffermer Bach]

You are concentrating on 'natural flow' whereas we may be talking about a 'watercourse' which can be man made and piped underground, in which case you are responsible for maintaining it and keeping it flowing. The web pages below may be worth looking at for further information.

Remember solicitors will say whatever they think will get them some work, not what is necessarily the best course of action for the individual. You don't repeat DON'T want solicitors getting involved you'd be better off chewing a new drain in with your bare teeth.

Owning a watercourse

Your responsibilities and rules to follow for watercourses on or near your property, and permissions you need to do work around them.

www.gov.uk

You normally own a stretch of watercourse that runs on or under your land.
A watercourse can be a culvert. A culvert is an underground structure that water can flow through.
You have responsibilities for the stretch of watercourse you own.
You may have to remove blockages, fallen trees or overhanging branches from your watercourse, or cut back trees and shrubs on the bank, if they could: reduce the flow or cause flooding to other landowners’ property – you may have to pay damages if they do

Culverts

Culverts are used to divert or drain water from land above it. They are enclosed watercourses and may be quite large. Find out who's responsible for them.

www.landregistryservices.com

Culverts are used to divert or drain water from land above it. They are enclosed watercourses and may be quite large. Responsibility to maintain a culvert is usually with the landowner for that part of it that is on the owner's land. This may be difficult if it is an old one and is buried beneath the ground and not visible.

so, what happens when the impediment to the flow of water is caused by Beavers that have been released by charities then?

 

[GeorgeK]

so, what happens when the impediment to the flow of water is caused by Beavers that have been released by charities then?

I expect if flooding effects the general public they will be rehomed swiftly and at great expense (aka pushing the problem onto farmers). If it's farmland their legally protected status will likely stop any interference with their activities?

 

[Andy26]

@Garnet
Trying to piece together a plan from the description, it would appear the flow does head for your property, you speak of a pipe from his pool going under the lane to an inspection chamber on your "lawn" or verge, there is then a pipe (from this chamber I take it) on your ground that has been jetted unsuccessfully. To me it sounds like this is the out flow, why else would it be piped under the lane and an inspection chamber be there?

It sounds like it has been boiling up on the lane and finding a route that way, now that has been fixed the water has to follow it's original route. The fact it's flooding your land suggests your on the recieving (lower) side of the equation and the pipes on your land sound like they need attention.

They may be old, out of service and all blocked up, but there lies the issue, the fact no-one knows where they go is irrelevant, a good man with a digger would soon find them and sort the issue.

This is how I understand it.

For the cost of two hours of solicitor time, a good man with a digger could sort.

I would expect when you bought your property the seller put a condition that you must maintain the integrity of all underground services and retained a right to maintain themselves if needed.

I would get a digger in, find the drains, repair and pass the water downhill.

 

[Lakesdigger]

Firstly we don't know lie of the land etc we are just guessing as to how it looks off what you have said. But there will be an existing system of drains to and from said pond which existed before you and your neighbour were ever there. Its ok saying the pond takes all your neighbours drains and not yours but you're property was once all part of the same so its perfectly reasonable you are linked in some way even if it's the outfall from the pond. It sounds like from what you have explained the outlet from the pond runs through your land. As for who is responsible that's difficult. But if you want to start with solicitors there's only ever one winner and that's the solicitors. I'd speak to your neighbour and try working together to suss out where it goes and what needs to be done even if it's too dig up to follow it. I don't know how well you get on maybe you don't and thats the problem. Either way if you have to pay for somebody with a digger to dig up and sort the bit on your land it'll still be cheaper than the solicitor.

 

[solo]

Water divining rods would be a good start to trace the underground drains before digging up the appropriate ones to clean out, replace or otherwise just put a new drain pipe in and bypass the blocked ones.
Solicitors may be able to get the onus on the other party, but by the time you have paid them, the other party will have lost all communication and goodwill with you. He may then do the work at a time convenient to him .ie years down the line. No one really wins and a lot of money is spent causing an unsatisfactory dispute with a neighbour you will need to get on with in the future. Not idea for either party, but it’s just easier to deal with the physical situation in front of you now, than have it festering away for years.

 

[puppet]

It ain't the farmhand milking the cow

 

[Exfarmer]

First thing I would check is your deeds, you may find your neighbour has a right to drain through your property! If so you have to take his water
You do seem to have made up your mind before posting on here , which is never a good idea if you are asking for advice.My one piece advice would be, go and find a good solicitor!

 

[Goweresque]

If the pipes that can't be jetted are ones that take the excess from this pond that is causing the problem, they must have been going somewhere, and by definition that somewhere must be down hill. If you only own 4 acres then it shouldn't be beyond the wit of man to work out where they were headed, and why. Just look at the lie of the land and ask yourself - if I was digging a drain across here where would I be heading for and why?

And if that approach fails it would be cheaper to get a trench dug across 4 acres to the next ditch down and a new pipe installed to move the water on to someone else than start down the legal route. A decent contractor will have a new pipe dug in and installed within a few days (don't do it now, wait until everything is nice and dry in the summer) and it'll cost you no more than a solicitor clearing his throat and thinking about the new car and holiday in the Bahamas he's going to get out a good drainage dispute.

Just remember owning land isn't free of costs. There are ditches and hedges and trees and drains and fences and stuff constantly grows. They all need money spending on maintenance, repairs and renewals.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

Small job, jet a drain, so far found two broken concrete pipes to be sorted, loads of trees roots and more to go, just pleased I am not having to pay someone to do it!

 

[Cowmansam]

If you’ve 4 aces just dig a bloody trench take the water of and pass it to the next man

 

[LAF]

Related question, hopefully easy for the more experienced hands... How do you trace the path of a drain ? I have one running from a storm water gully in the road under my field, and I can't tell where it ends ! I had it surveyed and it runs straight for 60m which was as the full run of the CCTV cable. I can make a rough guess where it has reached after about 60m. I guess I can dig a narrow slit trench by hand at a right angle to where I think it runs, and eventually I will find it, but is there a better way ?