Will aclonifen kill wheat shoots?

[Steevo]

Will aclonifen (Proclus, Bandur etc) kill 0.5mm emerged wheat shoots?

I know it's pretty harsh as a chemical and the label states it's pre-emergence only but thought it was worth asking the question.

 

[Bigjon44]

Don't know ,haven't been brave enough yet to put it in post em!!

 

[Hindsight]

Will aclonifen (Proclus, Bandur etc) kill 0.5mm emerged wheat shoots?

I know it's pretty harsh as a chemical and the label states it's pre-emergence only but thought it was worth asking the question.

No but might go very yellow. But do not try to claim against me if you find it does !

 

[richard hammond]

Will aclonifen (Proclus, Bandur etc) kill 0.5mm emerged wheat shoots?

I know it's pretty harsh as a chemical and the label states it's pre-emergence only but thought it was worth asking the question.

it can be harsh even as a pre-em, but only just emerging wheat should be ok after 10-14 days, dont bother looking for that time, It will be OK!

 

[ollie989898]

it can be harsh even as a pre-em, but only just emerging wheat should be ok after 10-14 days, dont bother looking for that time, It will be OK!

I too used to do that: 'spray it and just don't look at it (or ring me) for a fortnight'. Spuds and beet were the worst for this. Spray and pray.

 

[Steevo]

Hmmm……sounds like it might be worth a risk….!

 

[Steevo]

Times like this @Ian at Bayer was really handy.

Not sure if any Bayer employees still lurk on here.

 

[Hindsight]

Times like this @Ian at Bayer was really handy.

Not sure if any Bayer employees still lurk on here.

Not really. They will tell you it is to dangerous.

 

[Steevo]

Not really. They will tell you it is to dangerous.

Part of me says they should know better than anyone, and perhaps they are right.

That said I trust the comments by you and @richard hammond which sound like you have some experience.

 

[Hindsight]

Times like this @Ian at Bayer was really handy.

Not sure if any Bayer employees still lurk on here.

Battery ran out in ipad. So back t laptop - I set off on a rant but didn't send it. But will as it allowed me to let off steam.

By sounds of it you have following choices. The liberator component is safe and approved post emergence. It is the aclinofen that is not approved post emergence. If Bayer had sold the products separately then you could have spoken with your supplier and maybe arranged to return the aclinofen and add some prosulfocarb or pendimathalin instead. But as the BAYER marketing policy for this product as a twin pack is blasted awful you are stuck. So back to asking BAYER first I doubt there staff will be supportive of use post crop emergence, there weren’t when i asked my BAYER rep, and second its them has got you in this muddle in the first place. I do hope Bayer employees do lurk on here, and i hope they have read this post. Pis..d off with these bloody twin pack jobs. Oh and by the way I looked thursday evening at 80 hectares wheat variety dawsum sprayed with liberator aclinofen and avadex factor Friday 25th October with the wheat visible in rows. Ventured to look Thursday evening. Wheat is now less Yellow than it was as second leaf emerging green! The farm sprayer operator told me it was at its yellowest last Monday! A nice silt soil following potatoes and peas. It is the only farm I have used the damn stuff. I swore never to recommend its use again after I had a sprayer block up when it first came to market in Autumn 2020 - took the operator a full day to unbung the nozzles, filters and lines. And me several kind words, and ear drubbings subsequently. Elsewhere I have used Luximan - simply as it doesn't have this post emergence restriction. But fool me I thought I ought to give Bayer a fair crack of the whip. Madness, I know. Cheers. As ever - there is no come back to a man on t'internet.

 

[Steevo]

Battery ran out in ipad. So back t laptop - I set off on a rant but didn't send it. But will as it allowed me to let off steam.

By sounds of it you have following choices. The liberator component is safe and approved post emergence. It is the aclinofen that is not approved post emergence. If Bayer had sold the products separately then you could have spoken with your supplier and maybe arranged to return the aclinofen and add some prosulfocarb or pendimathalin instead. But as the BAYER marketing policy for this product as a twin pack is blasted awful you are stuck. So back to asking BAYER first I doubt there staff will be supportive of use post crop emergence, there weren’t when i asked my BAYER rep, and second its them has got you in this muddle in the first place. I do hope Bayer employees do lurk on here, and i hope they have read this post. Pis..d off with these bloody twin pack jobs. Oh and by the way I looked thursday evening at 80 hectares wheat variety dawsum sprayed with liberator aclinofen and avadex factor Friday 25th October with the wheat visible in rows. Ventured to look Thursday evening. Wheat is now less Yellow than it was as second leaf emerging green! The farm sprayer operator told me it was at its yellowest last Monday! A nice silt soil following potatoes and peas. It is the only farm I have used the damn stuff. I swore never to recommend its use again after I had a sprayer block up when it first came to market in Autumn 2020 - took the operator a full day to unbung the nozzles, filters and lines. And me several kind words, and ear drubbings subsequently. Elsewhere I have used Luximan - simply as it doesn't have this post emergence restriction. But fool me I thought I ought to give Bayer a fair crack of the whip. Madness, I know. Cheers. As ever - there is no come back to a man on t'internet.

Thank you very much indeed for your thoughts and experience. Invaluable.

Also interesting to hear about Luximo and it’s effects.

 

[Steevo]

Wasn’t aware Luximo could be used just post emergence until this. Wish I had known this before.

 

[ajd132]

Battery ran out in ipad. So back t laptop - I set off on a rant but didn't send it. But will as it allowed me to let off steam.

By sounds of it you have following choices. The liberator component is safe and approved post emergence. It is the aclinofen that is not approved post emergence. If Bayer had sold the products separately then you could have spoken with your supplier and maybe arranged to return the aclinofen and add some prosulfocarb or pendimathalin instead. But as the BAYER marketing policy for this product as a twin pack is blasted awful you are stuck. So back to asking BAYER first I doubt there staff will be supportive of use post crop emergence, there weren’t when i asked my BAYER rep, and second its them has got you in this muddle in the first place. I do hope Bayer employees do lurk on here, and i hope they have read this post. Pis..d off with these bloody twin pack jobs. Oh and by the way I looked thursday evening at 80 hectares wheat variety dawsum sprayed with liberator aclinofen and avadex factor Friday 25th October with the wheat visible in rows. Ventured to look Thursday evening. Wheat is now less Yellow than it was as second leaf emerging green! The farm sprayer operator told me it was at its yellowest last Monday! A nice silt soil following potatoes and peas. It is the only farm I have used the damn stuff. I swore never to recommend its use again after I had a sprayer block up when it first came to market in Autumn 2020 - took the operator a full day to unbung the nozzles, filters and lines. And me several kind words, and ear drubbings subsequently. Elsewhere I have used Luximan - simply as it doesn't have this post emergence restriction. But fool me I thought I ought to give Bayer a fair crack of the whip. Madness, I know. Cheers. As ever - there is no come back to a man on t'internet.

Twin packs should be illegal. It’s merely a money making excercise. There is NO other reason to do it.

 

[Hindsight]

Twin packs should be illegal. It’s merely a money making excercise. There is NO other reason to do it.

As I understand the situation there is a reason - to do with regulatory compliance. A co-form would require registration as a new co-form product. A twin pack where two existing registered products (with different actives) doesn't have to be supported with as much or different evidence to support registration. But then it does allow manufacturers to utilise that situation for marketing purposes. As we have seen with the Luximo product and the Bayer Proclus product. Just irritating. So much for 'liht touch' regulation!?

 

[Steevo]

As I understand the situation there is a reason - to do with regulatory compliance. A co-form would require registration as a new co-form product. A twin pack where two existing registered products (with different actives) doesn't have to be supported with as much or different evidence to support registration. But then it does allow manufacturers to utilise that situation for marketing purposes. As we have seen with the Luximo product and the Bayer Proclus product. Just irritating. So much for 'liht touch' regulation!?

Blows the “co-formulation works better than just mixing the chemicals in the hopper” argument out the water though.

Prosaro anyone…?!

 

[Goodolddays]

Twin packs should be illegal. It’s merely a money making excercise. There is NO other reason to do it.

Rubbish

 

[Goodolddays]

As I understand the situation there is a reason - to do with regulatory compliance. A co-form would require registration as a new co-form product. A twin pack where two existing registered products (with different actives) doesn't have to be supported with as much or different evidence to support registration. But then it does allow manufacturers to utilise that situation for marketing purposes. As we have seen with the Luximo product and the Bayer Proclus product. Just irritating. So much for 'liht touch' regulation!?

Co-forms are always preferred by R&D agchems, better patent protection etc. The fact they have not come is more down to issues with registration not purely marketing.

 

[nxy]

I take it it's sold as two cans in one box in the UK. Its sold here as a co form MATENO 450g/L aclonifen, 75g/L flufenacet and 60g/L diflufenican. Dispite a max rate of 3 litres, its widely used at 2 litres to help with green schemes where you get payments for lowering your chemical usage as measured by a "treatment frequency index".

We also have a straight Alconifen (challenge) but it's not for cereals, we use it here mostly on beans and sunflowers but alconifen has a massive 20m permanent pasture buffer strip requirement for water courses which renders it almost useless if you have ditches. I had a slap on the wrist last year because my buffer strips were only 15-18m in places because a stream wasn't straight.

EDIT got my wires crossed somewhere the max rate is 2 litres and widely used at 1.5.

EDIT 2 I also forgot to say Mateno is authorised at 2 litres post emergence from 1 to 3 leaves.

 

[Hindsight]

I take it it's sold as two cans in one box in the UK. Its sold here as a co form MATENO 450g/L aclonifen, 75g/L flufenacet and 60g/L diflufenican. Dispite a max rate of 3 litres, its widely used at 2 litres to help with green schemes where you get payments for lowering your chemical usage as measured by a "treatment frequency index".

We also have a straight Alconifen (challenge) but it's not for cereals, we use it here mostly on beans and sunflowers but alconifen has a massive 20m permanent pasture buffer strip requirement for water courses which renders it almost useless if you have ditches. I had a slap on the wrist last year because my buffer strips were only 15-18m in places because a stream wasn't straight.

EDIT got my wires crossed somewhere the max rate is 2 litres and widely used at 1.5.

EDIT 2 I also forgot to say Mateno is authorised at 2 litres post emergence from 1 to 3 leaves.

Thanks for that information. I had thought would rake a look for a french or German product label then try to decipher the timings etc. Saved me a tortuous job!

 

[Steevo]

I take it it's sold as two cans in one box in the UK. Its sold here as a co form MATENO 450g/L aclonifen, 75g/L flufenacet and 60g/L diflufenican. Dispite a max rate of 3 litres, its widely used at 2 litres to help with green schemes where you get payments for lowering your chemical usage as measured by a "treatment frequency index".

We also have a straight Alconifen (challenge) but it's not for cereals, we use it here mostly on beans and sunflowers but alconifen has a massive 20m permanent pasture buffer strip requirement for water courses which renders it almost useless if you have ditches. I had a slap on the wrist last year because my buffer strips were only 15-18m in places because a stream wasn't straight.

EDIT got my wires crossed somewhere the max rate is 2 litres and widely used at 1.5.

EDIT 2 I also forgot to say Mateno is authorised at 2 litres post emergence from 1 to 3 leaves.

Interesting, thank you very much.

Herbicides Mateno® : Bayer-Agri, traitement phytopharmaceutique pour la protection des cultures - Mateno®

HERBICIDE anti-graminées et anti-dicotylédones du blé tendre d'hiver.. Voir le tableau d'usage.

www.bayer-agri.fr

The same website also had a link to Proclus here too. Seems like your version of Proclus is exactly the same as Mateo and is also ready-mixed. It also states "post emergence" https://www.bayer-agri.fr/produits/fiche/herbicides-proclus/

Our version of Proclus is 600g/l aclonifen, and the standard rate of 1.4l/ha = 840g/ha. As you say, yours is 450g/l making 900g/ha applied at 2l.
We'd then use Liberator (400g/l FFT, 100g/l DFF) at 0.6l/ha which is 240g/ha FFT and 60g/ha DFF. So not quite the same as your mix, but not a million miles out.

What frustrates me is the co-packs arrive as 5l Liberator, 10l Proclus (and aren't even boxed in the same box - just loose cans!) At a max rate of Liberator of 0.6l/ha, that's 8.33ha/can. The Proclus at 1.4l/ha is 7.14ha/can. So going on standard rates, you just end up collecting extra part cans of Liberator. I was told a year ago that Bayer were planning to do a co-form to sort the pack size issue out and until seeing you can get exactly that I had my doubts if it would ever happen.

I had a PM from another TFF member who told me that Bayer have stated they might be looking to apply for authorisation for Post-Em in UK also.