Ha ha.. Yeah, great answer...
I'll stick with muddling along with a few highland/lim crosses
Farming without subsidies, is there a way....what's your suggestion.
- Thread starter Dave645
- Start date
I'll stick with muddling along with a few highland/lim crosses
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
DO we actually get Subsidies OR is it Support Payments?
Whichever, IF they do go, SO also will most of the rules and regs we have to abide by to get them. Which WILL be a big help.
And before any of you want to reply by saying these rules and regs, Cross Compliance will not go, GET REAL and just think:
How can Govt possibly implement them without some sort of support carrot combined with financial penalties if the rules aren't followed?
It just isn't possible!
Which is why I firmly believe that some sort of Production Support will continue.
Which to be honest, I'm not sure is the best thing, because it means that we have still lost control.
I'd like to ask our NZ friends what sort of regulations they have to put up with compared to us?
Whichever, IF they do go, SO also will most of the rules and regs we have to abide by to get them. Which WILL be a big help.
And before any of you want to reply by saying these rules and regs, Cross Compliance will not go, GET REAL and just think:
How can Govt possibly implement them without some sort of support carrot combined with financial penalties if the rules aren't followed?
It just isn't possible!
Which is why I firmly believe that some sort of Production Support will continue.
Which to be honest, I'm not sure is the best thing, because it means that we have still lost control.
I'd like to ask our NZ friends what sort of regulations they have to put up with compared to us?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Exactly . Raise your hand if you're not on the Internet .
That's why I think it's exciting times to be a farmer where you are. You've got a shitload of tech and gear at your disposal.
Most people in business are delighted when there's change in the wind... the ones that cry 'no fair' are soon left in the wake of those who have plotted their next 3 moves ahead of time.
Saying that things in NZ and elsewhere don't apply at all to farming in the US or the UK... what's really different? Is your wheat blue over there? All my ancestry is from Dundee or Edinburgh. My tractor is from Italy. Sheep yards made in NZ.
I get to repair a few sets of sheep yards that were made in n.z.
we don't get production support now
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Flash ones like my yards? [emoji21] [emoji106]
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Most areas are fairly regulated in terms of exporting, some markets in particular.
Hard to know where to start, what do you want to compare?
It's one of those things hard to put numbers to.
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
OK, Strictly speaking, perhaps you are right. We get an area support payment for the land that we use to grow food on.
But does my argument not still apply?
How can Government control what and how we produce our food with Cross Compliance rules, without some sort of support for which rules to get it have to be complied with?
What got me thinking about this was an email I got this evening from Farming Advice Service - February newsletter.
When I opened it up, I just couldn't believe how long it is and all the shite we have to abide by!
My eyes were drawn to The Guide to cross Compliance in England 2017.
It occurs to me that without some form of support payment, how can we cross comply to get it? And why should we?
Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
Whats all the nonsense about regulations? Do you think well be able to sell cattle without tags? One of the selling points of our beef is that its fully traceable, what other regs are you talking about that cost us farmers so much money? Being paid to put land in set aside? we dont know how good weve got it
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Ok, here goes!:
Do you have regulations as to when where and how much fertilisers you can use?
The same goes for ag chems?
How much FYM can you apply and when are you allowed to spread it?
What rules do you have re storing slurry and silage?
What are your rules re hedge cutting?
Or about fencing?
Stocking rates and poaching of feeding areas?
GM?
What sort of record keeping are you compelled to keep?
Do you legally have to test your soils periodically?
How accurately do you have to map your fields if you change their boundaries?
What are your fuel storage rules?
Do you have to have greening requirements and/or environmental focus areas?
What are you rules about using Rat poisons?
Do you get inspected to make sure you are abiding by the rules?
If so, how much notice if any will you get?
And are you confident you would be ready to answer any of the questions the inspector will ask you?
I am sure there are many more, but that is what immediately comes to mind.
Actually, there is one more which specifically relates to Deer farming, which is an enterprise I have here.
What are the rules regarding harvesting of Antler velvet? (Forbidden here!)
Thanks for your help @Kiwi Pete
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
It's a bit deeper than that @Bossfarmer isn't it? Of course we need ear tags!
See post 370 to get the gist of the (Cross Compliance) rules I am referring to.
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Some of the environmental regs are regulated at regional level, for example Southland Canterbury are more strict than Otago(where we live).. here I can put dry "effluent" in a heap on the ground so long as nothing leaches into a waterway, same with my silage it's just on clay dug into a hill. Southland would say both had to be on concrete with bunding/containment.
Dairy farms supplying Fonterra have most of the compulsory record keeping ie where you put your effluent is a resource consent issue but the records must be kept for your annual fonterra booklet, same with how much N you've used. Nutrient caps are being talked about but really it's only people smacking on heaps of soluble fert that will make this necessary.
Ag chemicals, largely you just need an approved handlers certificate and follow the label
Some auditing of suppliers takes place, silver fern farms and alliance both check you out occasionally but it is hardly a rubber glove-turn you head and cough inspection, more just checking you are following best practice.
New fuel tanks need to have bunding installed, can't quite remember the finer points but I only drive 600 yards to the local garage and top up.
Must day that the "dirty dairy" farmers are definitely the best at protecting their environment, they all have riparian margins etc in place and plans in place, not so much the sheep+beef sector where anything seems to be okay if nobodies getting hurt.
No soil testing required.
Anything goes if you want to move fences etc unless it's a boundary of a title.
Hedges etc are up to the owner, you can cut them or burn them or do what suits you on the day, lack of sponsorship helps
Deer- give them a jab of local and off they come!! Fortunately I've had the privilege of working in deer sheep beef and dairy systems, not really in a big arable area so I leave them be to complain amongst themselves..
Makes me really glad to be born here, the regulations are coming for sure, but not so much as you guys have. Largely things like stocking rates fert inputs are self governing. You'll go broke if you go far either way.. There's no place for applying urea on most sheep farms so there's no rule necessary. Most just stuck to lime and a bit of potash super when the subs went 30 odd years ago, and found that's all they really needed to remain in business. I might chuck a bit of lime on here one day.. but soils testing good.. ph is 5.8 OM is over 6% and the grass doesn't seem to lack anything but more mouths eating it. It's had nothing bar seaweed in 12 years so obviously the nitrogen potassium tested low in winter, but once the clovers are humming and everything is cycling through animals it would be better.
you can probably see the extent of the effluent and silage systems. Lambs enjoying a bit of regrowth from the baleage I took off couple of weeks ago.
Dairy farms supplying Fonterra have most of the compulsory record keeping ie where you put your effluent is a resource consent issue but the records must be kept for your annual fonterra booklet, same with how much N you've used. Nutrient caps are being talked about but really it's only people smacking on heaps of soluble fert that will make this necessary.
Ag chemicals, largely you just need an approved handlers certificate and follow the label
Some auditing of suppliers takes place, silver fern farms and alliance both check you out occasionally but it is hardly a rubber glove-turn you head and cough inspection, more just checking you are following best practice.
New fuel tanks need to have bunding installed, can't quite remember the finer points but I only drive 600 yards to the local garage and top up.
Must day that the "dirty dairy" farmers are definitely the best at protecting their environment, they all have riparian margins etc in place and plans in place, not so much the sheep+beef sector where anything seems to be okay if nobodies getting hurt.
No soil testing required.
Anything goes if you want to move fences etc unless it's a boundary of a title.
Hedges etc are up to the owner, you can cut them or burn them or do what suits you on the day, lack of sponsorship helps
Deer- give them a jab of local and off they come!! Fortunately I've had the privilege of working in deer sheep beef and dairy systems, not really in a big arable area so I leave them be to complain amongst themselves..
Makes me really glad to be born here, the regulations are coming for sure, but not so much as you guys have. Largely things like stocking rates fert inputs are self governing. You'll go broke if you go far either way.. There's no place for applying urea on most sheep farms so there's no rule necessary. Most just stuck to lime and a bit of potash super when the subs went 30 odd years ago, and found that's all they really needed to remain in business. I might chuck a bit of lime on here one day.. but soils testing good.. ph is 5.8 OM is over 6% and the grass doesn't seem to lack anything but more mouths eating it. It's had nothing bar seaweed in 12 years so obviously the nitrogen potassium tested low in winter, but once the clovers are humming and everything is cycling through animals it would be better.
Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
The list youve put up doesnt effect me much financially and many of the things are common sense for the environment
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Oh all deer and cattle are eid tagged and recorded on a national database. Any movement needs to be recorded and updated within 2 days I think. That's the NAIT system, brought in for traceability but mainly for tb control.
Stocking rates here are low because I can't afford to buy animals on the current market. Can carry about 160 calves plus 400 lambs in the summer, 125 calves in the barn over winter fills it up and plan to have 1000 or so winter lambs to capitalise on all the supplement I've made. 500 tonnes of silage and 350 bales of baleage rest I've had to put back into the soil for later.
Stocking rates here are low because I can't afford to buy animals on the current market. Can carry about 160 calves plus 400 lambs in the summer, 125 calves in the barn over winter fills it up and plan to have 1000 or so winter lambs to capitalise on all the supplement I've made. 500 tonnes of silage and 350 bales of baleage rest I've had to put back into the soil for later.
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Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
Out of interest what enterprises do you run on your farm and how has it changed since the sub removal?
- Location
- Moreton-in-Marsh, Glos
Thanks @Kiwi PeteSome of the environmental regs are regulated at regional level, for example Southland Canterbury are more strict than Otago(where we live).. here I can put dry "effluent" in a heap on the ground so long as nothing leaches into a waterway, same with my silage it's just on clay dug into a hill. Southland would say both had to be on concrete with bunding/containment.
Dairy farms supplying Fonterra have most of the compulsory record keeping ie where you put your effluent is a resource consent issue but the records must be kept for your annual fonterra booklet, same with how much N you've used. Nutrient caps are being talked about but really it's only people smacking on heaps of soluble fert that will make this necessary.
Ag chemicals, largely you just need an approved handlers certificate and follow the label
Some auditing of suppliers takes place, silver fern farms and alliance both check you out occasionally but it is hardly a rubber glove-turn you head and cough inspection, more just checking you are following best practice.
New fuel tanks need to have bunding installed, can't quite remember the finer points but I only drive 600 yards to the local garage and top up.
Must day that the "dirty dairy" farmers are definitely the best at protecting their environment, they all have riparian margins etc in place and plans in place, not so much the sheep+beef sector where anything seems to be okay if nobodies getting hurt.
No soil testing required.
Anything goes if you want to move fences etc unless it's a boundary of a title.
Hedges etc are up to the owner, you can cut them or burn them or do what suits you on the day, lack of sponsorship helps
Deer- give them a jab of local and off they come!! Fortunately I've had the privilege of working in deer sheep beef and dairy systems, not really in a big arable area so I leave them be to complain amongst themselves..
Makes me really glad to be born here, the regulations are coming for sure, but not so much as you guys have. Largely things like stocking rates fert inputs are self governing. You'll go broke if you go far either way.. There's no place for applying urea on most sheep farms so there's no rule necessary. Most just stuck to lime and a bit of potash super when the subs went 30 odd years ago, and found that's all they really needed to remain in business. I might chuck a bit of lime on here one day.. but soils testing good.. ph is 5.8 OM is over 6% and the grass doesn't seem to lack anything but more mouths eating it. It's had nothing bar seaweed in 12 years so obviously the nitrogen potassium tested low in winter, but once the clovers are humming and everything is cycling through animals it would be better.
you can probably see the extent of the effluent and silage systems. Lambs enjoying a bit of regrowth from the baleage I took off couple of weeks ago.
It's obvious you have some rules, but nothing like as comprehensive as those that we have here, which enable us to get our Subs/support.
I have one more big question: what happens if you don't abide by those rules?
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Depends which rules and who you supply. Have been some pretty big fines imposed for d**kh**d behaviour like "the pond got full so we pumped the effluent into that pine plantation and it went in the river". If it was me and the SFF auditor didn't like my method of storing agchem then I'd probably get about 12 months or so to buy a padlock!
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
In the sub days this was just a wee lifestyle block owned by an engineer. He had a crappy set of sheepyards made from scraps gathered from his work at the freezing works up the road. Ran about 200 ewes. I was only born in 1980 and subs went in 84.
Last guy here intended to use it for youngstock for his bigger Angus stud up the valley, but then got C in his leg and sold the big farm. He put on the barn and fenced it all into 5 acre paddocks with the idea it could be sold off as blocks, if the town expands then it's the only way it can go, rest is either swampy stuff river or sea.
Plan here was to graze dairy heifers as he had done, but no show of that based on dairy outlook and the grass around the country means nearly all have cut back herd size and grazing everything on.
Currently I've 50 friesian bulls, 100 would have been good but they are worth 50% more than 3 years ago. Paid $400 a head and most are $500 plus.
Store lambs I needed about 700 but have 475, same story, they're going for more at the saleyards than on the hooks. Everyone going crazy trying to eat all the grass they've got. Now. Strategy is I'm sussed for winter so aim to have 180 mixed beefies here either under the trees or in the barn while it's wet, and as many winter lambs as they can find me. Good early lamb premium, could maybe triple my money on them if they finish before the spring lambs come on tap. That's the big plan at this stage. Soils and systems are suited well to finishing/fattening youngstock. Maybe dairy heifers again, just don't like not getting paid.
Have to add that this is just a part-time occupation as well, Mrs B helps over calving next door and relief milks, I do engineering mechanical stuff on the side, plus all the ploughing/cultivation/seeding for a couple of local farmers and manage a runoff block for one. Hopefully by the time I run out of puff I will have my mortgage down a lot and can play the rest by ear. Financials did look good, but large amount of the income generated is down to having stock to trade [emoji6]
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- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Oh 43.3446 hectares plus a paper road.. 107 acres or so. He says 1200 stockunits but his folks came from de Nederlands.. that's pushing the truth a little.
Rates here $3000 per year
Seaweed -free
Lime about $12/ton
Food $600-800month, more in winter
Electric bill 175/month
Insurance expensive
Interest 3.90%
Urea between 575/660 tonne depending on the year, could be out, will never buy any
Diesel $1.389/litre at pump, I'm paying 81c plus GST for farm fuel, average of $80 per month
so obviously I'm not doing any ploughing and cultivation here. Just oversowing when I aerate.
Water is free and unrestricted as the towns tanks are in my paddock and the line runs through the farm to the end of the street.
38 inch rainfall, YTD 9 inches, that's the kpi that's driven up costs here it's meant to be fecking summer
Rates here $3000 per year
Seaweed -free
Lime about $12/ton
Food $600-800month, more in winter
Electric bill 175/month
Insurance expensive
Interest 3.90%
Urea between 575/660 tonne depending on the year, could be out, will never buy any
Diesel $1.389/litre at pump, I'm paying 81c plus GST for farm fuel, average of $80 per month
so obviously I'm not doing any ploughing and cultivation here. Just oversowing when I aerate.
Water is free and unrestricted as the towns tanks are in my paddock and the line runs through the farm to the end of the street.
38 inch rainfall, YTD 9 inches, that's the kpi that's driven up costs here
it's meant to be fecking summer
FonterraFarmer
Member
- Location
- Waikato, New Zealand
I think you might be quite suprised by what we have to do....
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