Well if your seasonal lets are £70 which doesnt sound much for a good grass growing climate etc , I suggest that say 50% of this would be down to the owner occupier bidder using his own sub to justify /finance it so perhaps you will see my logic even if you dont agree . Regarding the cattle value at the moment I would budget to get £1000 for an average o+ 300kg beast - after expenses etc ,bit low I know but I keep functional cattle to suit my situation thats another debate though . You suggested £800 as a likely figure in that scenario and I responded and certainly didnt disagree
Ag Subsidies
- Thread starter Tony
- Start date
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
Thanks for the response.
Looking back to the 1920's and 30's, the difference between survival and failure was owner-occupation: not cheap land, but paid-for land. Living on capital, basically, whilst waiting for things to improve. (Repeating much the same pattern of the 1870's, they say).
The commonest failing was, if I may say so, yours: good farmers persisted in trying to make an unprofitable job pay, largely by doing the same old thing and expecting it to pay, when the terms of trade had turned against them. If Brexit alters our terms of trade, the principal question is not 'how do I adapt?' but, instead, 'is it possible to adapt?'.
If you haven't already read Arthur Street's 'Farmers' Glory' why not get a copy. Probably the greatest farming autobiography ever written. (The first thing Arthur Street did, when times changed, was not to take on more rented ground, but to give up half his farm to cut his overhead, stop growing corn, and set up a dairy herd instead with a retail round.).
Our seasonal lets are on non BPS land - in some areas of the country, such land is free, or nearly so.
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Yes but I dont own any land and Arthur street did not have to cope with HLS and all his neighbours getting effectively rent free land whilst being it charged himself , How do I adapt ? - I do it differently or better but I must admit I'm running out of ideas .
Bossfarmer
Member
- Location
- between Perth and Inverness
http://www.thescottishfarmer.co.uk/...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer
sums it up, say no more!
sums it up, say no more!
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
Some arable farmers enjoy similar advantages (in fact, back in the 1990's, it was also then common to 'rent' out arable fields in exchange for the AAP) these days.
Looking forward, assuming that the UK manages (through Labour's efforts) to stay in the SM and CU, then the beef job is secure on the existing home and export markets. I doubt (after some panic this Autumn) that the UK really intends to leave these arrangements and revert to WTO rules, although accidents do happen.
So the next question is subsidies, after 2022. It's so far away, I would just consider (1) building up a reserve fund in case any one of our politicians does something stupid (there is a wide field of candidates) and 2. whether applying to join an enviro scheme is the line of least resistance.
We reviewed our options in 2015, and decided to go down this route. We have not regretted it. Yet.
Well...paying more for the food on supermarket shelves would be better......but good luck with that one....
Anyway, riddle me this.......why was so much time spent remapping the UK to claw back 20p from a Welsh hill farm, yet the Mafia was allowed to cream off 400 million Euros from EU subsidies ?
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
Because modern societies run on systems which are open to abuse.
HMRC have the same problem: carousel fraud costs the UK (it is the main target within Europe, because we have such weak systems) several billion each year, yet VAT inspectors will still give you a hard time over your diesel expenses.
I don't think the farm payments system was open to much abuse here in Blighty......
Those that foolishly tried didn't get away with it for long.
Meanwhile elsewhere.......
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
Plenty of fraud going on, still, from bTB to tags and sheep rustling.
It's a sore point - Julie lost a dozen lovely Cheviots this Spring, from a roadside field. I doubt that was the Mafia.
(Blighty is England - you are still in sunny Pembrokeshire).
- Location
- Bay of Plenty NZ
NZ sells their primary produce all over the world, it isn't just good export agreements that are needed (although they help, particularly FTAs).
UK farmers need a better marketing structure not only for exports but also for sales Nationally. It would help if the marketers were farmer owned. UK farmers cannot seem to get their head around combining forces and working together in a co op.
I think market forces will make co operation happen, this is where subs hold us back. They give enough to keep us independent (but on the breadline) where as no subs will make us Think less narrow minded , and so forward thinking farmers who are willing to co operate will most likely succeed and thrive.
I mean we all know farms where the old man(or woman) who are in their 70/80/90s and still have the cheque book and make the decisions. They cannot even work within their own family
- Location
- Bay of Plenty NZ
Agree. the removal of subs could force a dramatic shift in UK farming, quite probably for the better
I really couldnt give a **** what market place or tarriff system they decide to take , if cattle are £3 a kilo dw I will try to produce them for £2 and same theory applies to any other farm product its called" farming " but I dont expect to be helped or hindered but I do expect you or anyone else to be operating on the same terms within the uk . If you need to get involved with an enviromental scheme you are no longer "farming" I dont really
know what you are then apart from burden to the tax payer , but please dont bring your evil hand out from the devil to market with you or inflict the forfeits you have to complete on someone else .
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Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
This is satire, right?
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
You might consider the lessons of past times - in the two most recent upheavals in agriculture due to either the removal of government support (in 1923 onwards) or an alteration in the terms of trade (1873 onwards) there were no good consequences.
What evidence do you have to support your view that it will be different this time?
Please forgive ingnorance re "satire" , I think I'm just saying how it is , I think we have achieved alot here certainly try different things methods etc some work some dont ,necessity is the mother of invention they say,have had good results sometimes nowadays though constantly fighting the system they also say you cant make a silk purse out of a sows ear , we grow 3 tons acre of spring barley 20 tons of maize 11me 30% dm we wean 100 % calving we have bulls on forage based diet at 650 kgs at 13/14 months we can winter a cow for under £200 very low fixed costs but the grass is hopeless just we cant pay a market rent to get some unresticted grass what do you suggest ? I know why we cant its basically down to others sub and schemes which yes I do regard as "evil "
- Location
- Owaka, New Zealand
Because the Mafia are very smart and don't feel the need to farm
Sounds like a pisstake of farming but most farmers do not see very far outside their own paradigm (if they even look) more content to do the same thing as the day before- which includes moaning about their lot, on average.
I didn't intend to repeat the phrase "in the real world" but... in the real world of business this rut-polishing just does not guarantee any measure of success, and nor should it.
"A rut is a grave, open at both ends" - can't remember who to thank for that quote but @Walterp will know.
Walterp
Member
- Location
- Pembrokeshire
Emigrate - you do not have the necessary adaptability to succeed in a small, crowded and industrialised country, but I am sure that you will do well in a big, empty and rural one.
- Location
- Bay of Plenty NZ
Were those upheavals restricted to agriculture or a general worldwide depression?
Do we need evidence to predict the future, or can we rely on supposition?