Ag Subsidies

[Kiwi Pete]

I have to agree, sadly the land is far too small and farmer-heavy for any guarantee of success - which is possibly the root of all of this - it has delayed the inevitable but half could have no farming future in the UK - a fag-packet calculation based on the livestock prices mentioned above.

If our average prices are half yours and, we are all roughly in the same basket, then =
there are twice as many farmers trying to achieve a similar output and maintain fair living standards.

It does grieve me deeply to say this as an outsider especially.
As you all know, your government is a major hindrance to progress

we sure aren't limited to poking these basterds with little sticks is a prime example. It died a very humane and quick death.

 

[Walterp]

Were those upheavals restricted to agriculture or a general worldwide depression?

Do we need evidence to predict the future, or can we rely on supposition?

If you don't know much (if anything) about the agricultural depressions of the fairly recent past then I respectfully suggest you read up and consider them before expressing a view.

The best place to start would, in my opinion, be a work of fiction: Zola's 'La Terre' was written in 1887 and is a grim and sordid account of family farming in the 19th Century on the arable plains of the Paris Basin.

It's got everything from sheep illnesses to fertiliser pioneering, to the farmer's wife carrying on with the herdsman, old boys refusing to hand over the reins, what happens to them if they do, and the way that State agricultural subsidies resolved the eternal conflict between farmers who seek a return on capital and the rest of the population who seek cheap food.

It was set during the Long Depression, when N American binders ruined European corn farmers.

For the onset of the Great Depression (which began in farming) the best account is Adrian Bell's 'Corduroy' (Martin Bell's father) and his memorable description of farmers, moaning about poor prices, who failed to appreciate that they were the harbinger of bankruptcy for many large-scale tenant farmers in the following decade.

There's nothing wrong with your political preferences colouring your views, but I suggest it's fair to make it clear that you are describing what you want to happen, not what the available evidence suggests probably will happen.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

Emigrate - you do not have the necessary adaptability to succeed in a small, crowded and industrialised country, but I am sure that you will do well in a big, empty and rural one.

That in the past has been the best thing many people have done, stay , bitch and complain, or emigrate and make something of their life. Its nothing new ,nor is it rocket science.

 

[digger64]

Emigrate - you do not have the necessary adaptability to succeed in a small, crowded and industrialised country, but I am sure that you will do well in a big, empty and rural one.

Mmn is it really that hopeless ? regarding adaptability is that similar to being resourceful ?do your cows live in barns or cubicles ? (Mine live on an arable field behind 2 hot wires,) because I thought I was fairly good at that , if I wasnt wouldnt be where I am now ,did you inherit your farm or tenancy ? (I had 12 ewes and a dog in 1992 )How do you define success in farm terms ?
you talk about adapting you have read alot , I have also read some of the books you suggest , all the characters
survive/succeed by not following the trend of the time but they had freedom to move in any direction finance permitting but on the whole they just reduced their overheads and maintained cashflow somehow or other the whole industry now is strangled by rules ,payments tax loop holes and an enormous asset value
like a ball and chain is now not an opportunity to smash it up and start again ,

 

[possumbility]

my family started farming by taking a tenancy out in the 20s, and as land was abandoned took more on, as a result 5 generations on ,we have many farms supporting many families, something good did out of the 20'

 

[Kiwi Pete]

Mmn is it really that hopeless ? regarding adaptability is that similar to being resourceful ? because I thought I was fairly good at that , if I wasnt wouldnt be where I am now ,did you inherit your farm or tenancy ? How do you define success in farm terms ?
you talk about adapting you have read alot , I have also read some of the books you suggest , all the characters
survive/succeed by not following the trend of the time but they had freedom to move in any direction finance permitting but on the whole they just reduced their overheads and maintained cashflow somehow or other the whole industry now is strangled by rules ,payments tax loop holes and an enormous asset value
like a ball and chain is now not an opportunity to smash it up and start again ,

It's feasible to ski through a revolving door if your timing is right and you keep your elbows in.

 

[digger64]

Emigrate - you do not have the necessary adaptability to succeed in a small, crowded and industrialised country, but I am sure that you will do well in a big, empty and rural one.

Having thought alot about your suggestion and the situation I think I dont have the necessary wealth to succeed would be more accurate but my adaptability has got me into a corner trying to run with the fox and hounds I think they call it

 

[FonterraFarmer]

I have to agree, sadly the land is far too small and farmer-heavy for any guarantee of success - which is possibly the root of all of this - it has delayed the inevitable but half could have no farming future in the UK - a fag-packet calculation based on the livestock prices mentioned above.

If our average prices are half yours and, we are all roughly in the same basket, then =
there are twice as many farmers trying to achieve a similar output and maintain fair living standards.

It does grieve me deeply to say this as an outsider especially.
As you all know, your government is a major hindrance to progressView attachment 571808we sure aren't limited to poking these basterds with little sticks is a prime example. It died a very humane and quick death.

There like an inverted pothole if you run them over with the CTX......

 

[stewart]

If you don't know much (if anything) about the agricultural depressions of the fairly recent past then I respectfully suggest you read up and consider them before expressing a view.

I have only a minimal interest in history, tending to look forward not back. To answer my own question "were the upheavals restricted to agriculture" No they were not. The main causes were speculative investment, a drop in commodities (particularly silver) and the USA pushing for war reparations from Germany, which it was unable to repay.

The best place to start would, in my opinion, be a work of fiction: Zola's 'La Terre' was written in 1887 and is a grim and sordid account of family farming in the 19th Century on the arable plains of the Paris Basin.

It's got everything from sheep illnesses to fertiliser pioneering, to the farmer's wife carrying on with the herdsman, old boys refusing to hand over the reins, what happens to them if they do, and the way that State agricultural subsidies resolved the eternal conflict between farmers who seek a return on capital and the rest of the population who seek cheap food.

It was set during the Long Depression, when N American binders ruined European corn farmers.

For the onset of the Great Depression (which began in farming) the best account is Adrian Bell's 'Corduroy' (Martin Bell's father) and his memorable description of farmers, moaning about poor prices, who failed to appreciate that they were the harbinger of bankruptcy for many large-scale tenant farmers in the following decade.

Thank you for the recommendation, I steer clear of fictional books on agriculture, I find this forum has enough fiction for me to cope with.
The reference to North American binders ruining European corn farmers I find interesting.
The British Parliament used the Corn Laws to protect the landed gentry from those same North American binders, resulting in the mass starvation of Ireland and leading to a population increase in the colonies, either from Ireland, (where as there was nothing to eat you could starve to death, or get a boat to the U.S.A.), or from England where you were sent to the penal colony of Australia for the heinous crime of stealing bread to feed a starving family, you had to steal as the artificiality high price of grain made bread unaffordable.

There's nothing wrong with your political preferences colouring your views, but I suggest it's fair to make it clear that you are describing what you want to happen, not what the available evidence suggests probably will happen.

Political preferences will undoubtedly colour my views. I am not unique in that. However I do not believe I am describing what I want to happen, I genuinely believe that the removal of subsidy would be a good thing for U.K. farmers.
For my own selfish ends it would be preferable for U.K. agriculture to bumble along as it is now with no coordinated marketing in place, this keeps a potential competitor out of the market.
However if subsidies are removed I do not under estimate the resilience of U.K. Farmers, some will undoubtedly go to the wall unable to cope without their subsidy fix those that stay have the potential to work together and try to take some control further up the supply chain.
As available evidence m'lord I would suggest you look at the countries already surviving if not prospering without subsidy payments.

 

[FonterraFarmer]

I have only a minimal interest in history, tending to look forward not back. To answer my own question "were the upheavals restricted to agriculture" No they were not. The main causes were speculative investment, a drop in commodities (particularly silver) and the USA pushing for war reparations from Germany, which it was unable to repay.




Thank you for the recommendation, I steer clear of fictional books on agriculture, I find this forum has enough fiction for me to cope with.
The reference to North American binders ruining European corn farmers I find interesting.
The British Parliament used the Corn Laws to protect the landed gentry from those same North American binders, resulting in the mass starvation of Ireland and leading to a population increase in the colonies, either from Ireland, (where as there was nothing to eat you could starve to death, or get a boat to the U.S.A.), or from England where you were sent to the penal colony of Australia for the heinous crime of stealing bread to feed a starving family, you had to steal as the artificiality high price of grain made bread unaffordable.


Political preferences will undoubtedly colour my views. I am not unique in that. However I do not believe I am describing what I want to happen, I genuinely believe that the removal of subsidy would be a good thing for U.K. farmers.
For my own selfish ends it would be preferable for U.K. agriculture to bumble along as it is now with no coordinated marketing in place, this keeps a potential competitor out of the market.
However if subsidies are removed I do not under estimate the resilience of U.K. Farmers, some will undoubtedly go to the wall unable to cope without their subsidy fix those that stay have the potential to work together and try to take some control further up the supply chain.
As available evidence m'lord I would suggest you look at the countries already surviving if not prospering without subsidy payments.

If there was any time for agriculture in the UK to man up and take control of its destiny, it is now before brexit, because if they don't do it now, what hope is there for the future or the next generation?

 

[Walterp]

Mmn is it really that hopeless ? regarding adaptability is that similar to being resourceful ?do your cows live in barns or cubicles ? (Mine live on an arable field behind 2 hot wires,) because I thought I was fairly good at that , if I wasnt wouldnt be where I am now ,did you inherit your farm or tenancy ? (I had 12 ewes and a dog in 1992 )How do you define success in farm terms ?
you talk about adapting you have read alot , I have also read some of the books you suggest , all the characters
survive/succeed by not following the trend of the time but they had freedom to move in any direction finance permitting but on the whole they just reduced their overheads and maintained cashflow somehow or other the whole industry now is strangled by rules ,payments tax loop holes and an enormous asset value
like a ball and chain is now not an opportunity to smash it up and start again ,

Adaptability is the ability to adjust to and thrive in your current environment, which you find very difficult (and frustrating). Hence my observation. It's very kind of you not to take umbrage - but you did kinda ask for it.

I haven't inherited anything: I went into business and made enough money to go farming. Still at it, on an average sized grass and arable place in South Pembrokeshire.

Arthur Street's main point, which I believe he makes insufficiently clear, is that UK agriculture was not stable in the early 1930's but was gradually declining into a complete collapse. That's what happens when farmers sit it out - either something changes (like German Fascists who wanted, like you, to 'smash things up' - that's a direct quote from Goering, interestingly) or everyone ends up bust.

That's why the suggestion that the 1920's wasn't all bad is incorrect: things changed for the better, in 1933, so things improved and those who stuck it out were vindicated. That's not the same thing at all.

In the time we have been farming (25 years) in the UK it is what you did to while away the time whilst waiting for your property to go up in value.

That era has now ended, so what is the next era? I suggest that - in or out of the EU or EEA - it is to capitalise on the UK's preference to finance the environment rather than food production.

Just my opinion, you are welcome to disagree. But how you overwinter your cows has a part, somewhere, in that prospect.

 

[digger64]

Adaptability is the ability to adjust to and thrive in your current environment, which you find very difficult (and frustrating). Hence my observation. It's very kind of you not to take umbrage - but you did kinda ask for it.

I haven't inherited anything: I went into business and made enough money to go farming. Still at it, on an average sized grass and arable place in South Pembrokeshire.

Arthur Street's main point, which I believe he makes insufficiently clear, is that UK agriculture was not stable in the early 1930's but was gradually declining into a complete collapse. That's what happens when farmers sit it out - either something changes (like German Fascists who wanted, like you, to 'smash things up' - that's a direct quote from Goering, interestingly) or everyone ends up bust.

That's why the suggestion that the 1920's wasn't all bad is incorrect: things changed for the better, in 1933, so things improved and those who stuck it out were vindicated. That's not the same thing at all.

In the time we have been farming (25 years) in the UK it is what you did to while away the time whilst waiting for your property to go up in value.

That era has now ended, so what is the next era? I suggest that - in or out of the EU or EEA - it is to capitalise on the UK's preference to finance the environment rather than food production.

Just my opinion, you are welcome to disagree. But how you overwinter your cows has a part, somewhere, in that prospect.

You dont seem to understand what the books are telling you , could I politely suggest you try a bit of george orwell , 1984 and animal farm I suggest , the nfu members / hierachy would do well to read these too , the characters you talk about lived in a democratic society and certainly didnt go to war or struggle to create the corrupt self interested protectionist farce we have now .The sense of entitlement that prevails in uk farming is unbeleivable
I guess the boss is the most extreme but he does represent quite a few in many ways but in recent years perhaps its all he has known to be fair.

ps re umbrage and other new words to me(keep looking these up ) ,its a debate I'm happy to receive what I give and no offence taken I say what I think you are entitled to do the same and there is nothing personal intended

 

[Walterp]

You dont seem to understand what the books are telling you , could I politely suggest you try a bit of george orwell , 1984 and animal farm I suggest , the nfu members / hierachy would do well to read these too , the characters you talk about lived in a democratic society and certainly didnt go to war or struggle to create the corrupt self interested protectionist farce we have now .The sense of entitlement that prevails in uk farming is unbeleivable
I guess the boss is the most extreme but he does represent quite a few in many ways but in recent years perhaps its all he has known to be fair.

ps re umbrage and other new words to me(keep looking these up ) ,its a debate I'm happy to receive what I give and no offence taken I say what I think you are entitled to do the same and there is nothing personal intended

I'm a fan of Orwell (you do know he was a Socialist, don't you?) and I support social democracy, which subjects free market economics to social controls.

That explains why I also support the European approach, rather than the American, to policies as diverse as healthcare, agriculture, trade, education, etc.

Environment policy is a great example - I suggest you either figure out a way to thrive within the system, or consider moving to another State which might be more in tune with your political philosophy. Resentment isn't a good business plan.

 

[Y Fan Wen]

If you don't know much (if anything) about the agricultural depressions of the fairly recent past then I respectfully suggest you read up and consider them before expressing a view.

The best place to start would, in my opinion, be a work of fiction: Zola's 'La Terre' was written in 1887 and is a grim and sordid account of family farming in the 19th Century on the arable plains of the Paris Basin.

It's got everything from sheep illnesses to fertiliser pioneering, to the farmer's wife carrying on with the herdsman, old boys refusing to hand over the reins, what happens to them if they do, and the way that State agricultural subsidies resolved the eternal conflict between farmers who seek a return on capital and the rest of the population who seek cheap food.

It was set during the Long Depression, when N American binders ruined European corn farmers.

For the onset of the Great Depression (which began in farming) the best account is Adrian Bell's 'Corduroy' (Martin Bell's father) and his memorable description of farmers, moaning about poor prices, who failed to appreciate that they were the harbinger of bankruptcy for many large-scale tenant farmers in the following decade.

There's nothing wrong with your political preferences colouring your views, but I suggest it's fair to make it clear that you are describing what you want to happen, not what the available evidence suggests probably will happen.

I once went on a day course on rural history run by UCNW Bangor which included a tour round the Snowdonia massif. The lecturer explained that the difference between adjacent mountain farms where one side of a wall was covered in isolated thorn trees and the other side had none was 'cos one had been abandoned in the late 19C and the other side had not.
I had always assumed that it was the early 20C depression that caused it but he said that one didn't last long enough.
My home farm is an amalgamation of 6 former tenanted holdings. The last one to be taken in hand in the mid 30s had been abandoned in the previous century and was covered in thorns. The last occupant's son told me about he and his father working with a horse and chain dewilding it.

 

[Kiwi Pete]

http://www.farmingahead.com.au/insight/on-farm/australian-producers-among-the-least-subsidised/?utm_source=Email&utm_medium=FAH&utm_campaign=Top5&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Top 5 - FAH&utm_content=Top 5 - FAH+CID_b0623fa3fc3bd35303db0669a96ecf92&utm_source=Campaign Monitor&utm_term=Australian producers among the least subsidised

Sorry I dont know how to shorten the link ,but to all the farmers who complain that their government payments are late or not enough to survive on toughen up and try and live in the real world.

Tony

How are you coping with drought, mate?

Looks like "death warmed up" over there - hope you are OK

 

[Farmer Roy]

I wouldn't worry about him - he has HUGE scale ( somehow his 1100 ha grew to 10,000 acres in the Bosses post ) , doesn't need to dry his grain & has SO MANY unfair advantages ( including NOT having tax payer subs or even govt "exceptional circumstances" drought support anymore ), compared to the poor sad sack pansies here who cant even survive without their brown paper bag of dole money they are soooo worthily entitled to as they produce cheap food . . .
FFS man - don't you realise it got to 23 C & hasn't rained for TWO WEEKS in part of the UK
Red Cross & UNHCR will be sending relief packages soon . . .
" wont someone think of the children "

 

[stewart]

I wouldn't worry about him - he has HUGE scale ( somehow his 1100 ha grew to 10,000 acres in the Bosses post ) , doesn't need to dry his grain & has SO MANY unfair advantages ( including NOT having tax payer subs or even govt "exceptional circumstances" drought support anymore ), compared to the poor sad sack pansies here who cant even survive without their brown paper bag of dole money they are soooo worthily entitled to as they produce cheap food . . .
FFS man - don't you realise it got to 23 C & hasn't rained for TWO WEEKS in part of the UK
Red Cross & UNHCR will be sending relief packages soon . . .
" wont someone think of the children "

Currently in the UK and I don't know how the poor little mites are coping with this extended period of "drought" It is now more than 3 werks since there has been any rain, the grass is starting to turn a lighter shade of green, which may possibly be an optical illusion due to the light. The temperatures are almost unbearable in the mid to high 20s it is predicted to reach 30 this week, it is so hot that many of the locals have had to take their ties off and some have gone as far as removing their jacket.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Currently in the UK and I don't know how the poor little mites are coping with this extended period of "drought" It is now more than 3 werks since there has been any rain, the grass is starting to turn a lighter shade of green, which may possibly be an optical illusion due to the light. The temperatures are almost unbearable in the mid to high 20s it is predicted to reach 30 this week, it is so hot that many of the locals have had to take their ties off and some have gone as far as removing their jacket.

f**k . . .

I didn't realise it was THAT bad

any talk of Bob Geldoff & Bono doing any charity gigs to help them out ?
Is there any sign of the UN or other international aid to help them ?

do they even know its Christmas ( in July ) ?

 

[Bossfarmer]

I wouldn't worry about him - he has HUGE scale ( somehow his 1100 ha grew to 10,000 acres in the Bosses post ) , doesn't need to dry his grain & has SO MANY unfair advantages ( including NOT having tax payer subs or even govt "exceptional circumstances" drought support anymore ), compared to the poor sad sack pansies here who cant even survive without their brown paper bag of dole money they are soooo worthily entitled to as they produce cheap food . . .
FFS man - don't you realise it got to 23 C & hasn't rained for TWO WEEKS in part of the UK
Red Cross & UNHCR will be sending relief packages soon . . .
" wont someone think of the children "

if its that difficult to grow crops in Aus why dont you just leave it fallow and import your food, leave it to more productive parts of the world and they may recieve a better price

 

[lazy farmer]

unlike our grumpy Scottish friend I found the last few posts properly laugh out loud funny as well as being spot on !