Getting problem cows in calf

Holsteinfriesian90 · May 1, 2018

Had a cow last year had a job to get incalf ai first time to triple blue and 12 hours later to Kirkby premier. Calved about a month ago premier heifer calf probably not the ideal situation but least she was in calf.

Clay52 · May 5, 2018

Rossymons said:
Synch programmes don't get poor breeders incalf. What they do do however is get them cycling at a time to suit you. So if you're struggling to get them incalf now through conventional heat detection and AI then a synch programme won't improve that.

From personal experience I doubt you will get your 1st calver pregnant again. Looking through our herd there's a clear trend between problem free calving and subsequent fertility.

If they are yielding as you say then they aren't harming anyone so keep them going. But the longer it takes to get them incalf the longer the dry period. So what is a decent lactation now needs to be measured against how many days she isn't producing. A 10k cow is useless if her lactation is 18 months.

The current best sync programs actually do end up with better conception rates than natural heats due to the way the manipulate the cycle and the accurate timing of AI in relation to ovulation. Sync programs help get cows pregnant in multiple ways.

In saying that in regards to the original question in and problem fertility cows. Don’t do anything special to them. Just get rid of them. You will be glad you did.

Will Blackburn · May 5, 2018

Why not serve 24hrs later. AI training said that for late ovulators.

Rossymons · May 5, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
Why not serve 24hrs later. AI training said that for late ovulators.

I've always served early if in doubt. Just because you see her jumping now doesn't mean you can accurately determine what stage of cycle she is in.

Never been a fan of double serving neither.

Will Blackburn · May 5, 2018

Rossymons said:
I've always served early if in doubt. Just because you see her jumping now doesn't mean you can accurately determine what stage of cycle she is in.

Never been a fan of double serving neither.

Worth a try at 3rd service, whether you do one at normal time is optional.

F+ works by having bulls with complementary sperm maturation times.

Clay52 · May 5, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
Why not serve 24hrs later. AI training said that for late ovulators.

But you don’t know for sure she actually ovulates late.
If she ovulates normally but just has poor conception, by AIing that late you will guarantee she doesn’t get prevent.

Clay52 · May 5, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
Worth a try at 3rd service, whether you do one at normal time is optional.

F+ works by having bulls with complementary sperm maturation times.

Is it worth a try? If that’s the sort of herd you want, as in they require a double service then go for it. Even though not keeping a replacement if you get her pregnant you’ll have the same issue next year.

ladycrofter · May 5, 2018

Interesting topic. I wonder if just measuring sperm count and motility is the whole story. There is a lot more going on than just getting the sperm to the right place at the right time. Sperm have a hard head on them to penetrate the egg, and through decades of selective breeding for other things, this is just one of many things which could fall by the wayside and would be very difficult to notice, much less select for. And AFAIK the multi-breed straws just have three different duration-life sperm, all still from highly-bred bulls.

Once inside the egg, the sperm has to swim through thick cytoplasm and break through another membrane to reach the nucleus. Breed societies and AI suppliers trumpet the number of calves conceived and related statistics for a given bull, however they do not advertise how many goes it took each time to get those calves. So having a tail which you can wildly whip 'round in thin semen fluid under the microscope is actually just another version of willy-waving - all talk and not action.

I think a lot of money (and some of my own, I would add) has been wasted on premium sperm from "premium" bulls, when the fact is that the sperm themselves do not have what it takes to get there and do the job once they arrive. And once again, we blame the cow. Who is actually on cycle for about 10 hours. And in most cases already proved that she can conceive. Really, just how long should a sperm need to do the job FFS.

For lesser pushed and selected for breeds, as you mentioned Welsh Black and the bizarre Murray Grey, no one has taken enough interest in developing their EBV's to ruin the inner workings of nature for the sake of a thicker fillet steak. I expect you'd get better catches off a Galloway also. Natural service likely works for any breed because the bull is injecting such a load of sperm, multiple times, that even if most of it is dodgy, one of the millions will have what it takes to do the job.

Clay52 · May 5, 2018

ladycrofter said:
Interesting topic. I wonder if just measuring sperm count and motility is the whole story. There is a lot more going on than just getting the sperm to the right place at the right time. Sperm have a hard head on them to penetrate the egg, and through decades of selective breeding for other things, this is just one of many things which could fall by the wayside and would be very difficult to notice, much less select for. And AFAIK the multi-breed straws just have three different duration-life sperm, all still from highly-bred bulls.

Once inside the egg, the sperm has to swim through thick cytoplasm and break through another membrane to reach the nucleus. Breed societies and AI suppliers trumpet the number of calves conceived and related statistics for a given bull, however they do not advertise how many goes it took each time to get those calves. So having a tail which you can wildly whip 'round in thin semen fluid under the microscope is actually just another version of willy-waving - all talk and not action.

I think a lot of money (and some of my own, I would add) has been wasted on premium sperm from "premium" bulls, when the fact is that the sperm themselves do not have what it takes to get there and do the job once they arrive. And once again, we blame the cow. Who is actually on cycle for about 10 hours. And in most cases already proved that she can conceive. Really, just how long should a sperm need to do the job FFS.

For lesser pushed and selected for breeds, as you mentioned Welsh Black and the bizarre Murray Grey, no one has taken enough interest in developing their EBV's to ruin the inner workings of nature for the sake of a thicker fillet steak. I expect you'd get better catches off a Galloway also. Natural service likely works for any breed because the bull is injecting such a load of sperm, multiple times, that even if most of it is dodgy, one of the millions will have what it takes to do the job.

We have figures for semen fertility and for daughter fertility for basically every Holstein bull and plenty of data backing it up. Well run Holstein herds are achiving better fertility now than anytime in the last 20 years and with a lot more production.

Many herds actually get poorer pregnancy rates of natural service. Bigger load but not getting placed through the cervix like AI. Natural bulls are not looked after as good as AI bulls. Bull may have just jumped another cow 5 minutes earlier.

Will Blackburn · May 5, 2018

Clay52 said:
Is it worth a try? If that’s the sort of herd you want, as in they require a double service then go for it. Even though not keeping a replacement if you get her pregnant you’ll have the same issue next year.

Late ovulation is not really a fault, could always make a noe for next time.

Clay52 · May 6, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
Late ovulation is not really a fault, could always make a noe for next time.

Delayed ovulation is certainly a fault of the cow not cycling properly, that’s why it’s called delayed ovulation and not normal ovulation.

How are you determining she is late ovulation? Are the vets ultrasounding the ovaries every few hours for you to determine ovulation?

How do you know she will be late again next time?

Will Blackburn · May 6, 2018

It's an assumption base on 2 failed insemination, that the very experienced AI trainer told us to bear in mind.

Will Blackburn · May 6, 2018

If they delay, they delay every time. Normal for her.

Clay52 · May 6, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
If they delay, they delay every time. Normal for her.

Nope. Cows are more likely to have delayed ovulation in times of stress or anything that causes negative balance, poor transition, heat stress, poor diet, ect. Late ovulating cows don’t necessarily ovulate late all the time. Cows with poor genetic fertility levels would be more likely to ovulate late.

Clay52 · May 6, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
It's an assumption base on 2 failed insemination, that the very experienced AI trainer told us to bear in mind.

It’s a bad assumption. Even a cow with decent conception rate ( let’s say 50%) and nothing wrong, cycling normally, will make it to 3rd breeding 1 in 4 times.

Clay52 · May 6, 2018

Repeat breeders can be given a shot of gnrh at breeding. It will make those late ovulaters ovulate a bit earlier. It will give a few percent boost in conception rate. Not something I want to do though.

Will Blackburn · May 6, 2018

Clay52 said:
It’s a bad assumption. Even a cow with decent conception rate ( let’s say 50%) and nothing wrong, cycling normally, will make it to 3rd breeding 1 in 4 times.

The trainer is no fly by night cowboy, backed up by a top fertility vet. Just relaying the information, I assume it's proven that 24hrs later has better success than a straw at normal time.

DairyGrazing · May 6, 2018

borderterribles said:
When I was milking in Staffordshire, it was pretty widely believed there that a Welsh Black would get in calf some cows that others wouldn't. I tried it, and found it worked, but after having the Vet to calve( or to be more accurate, cut out) two out of three of them, I wished I hadn't done it

We found the same. Welsh black id the last resort before culling. A cogent bull cawr it gets them in calf where others don’t. However they are difficult to calf they are big, stocky and don’t seem to slip out. Similar sized lim/aa would come out these don’t want to.

Clay52 · May 6, 2018

Will Blackburn said:
The trainer is no fly by night cowboy, backed up by a top fertility vet. Just relaying the information, I assume it's proven that 24hrs later has better success than a straw at normal time.

There must have been some information lost in his teaching process then because you don’t have the correct information.

No it’s not proven 24hr later has more success.

Ideal time to AI is 4-16 hours after the onset of estrus.

Breeding later than this, even repeat breeders, you are going to average lower conception rates.

dinderleat · May 6, 2018

Clay52 said:
There must have been some information lost in his teaching process then because you don’t have the correct information.

No it’s not proven 24hr later has more success.

Ideal time to AI is 4-16 hours after the onset of estrus.

Breeding later than this, even repeat breeders, you are going to average lower conception rates.

Totally agree we serve as soon as I see bullying with in 12 hrs so next milking we’ve been over 60% conception rates

Getting problem cows in calf

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