My husband killed himself while I slept - Continue the discussion about mental health

Clive said:

I often wonder about the old saying that money doesn't buy happiness and agree it can't and money / material things certainly are never as important as health, family, love etc

however wealth buys choices that can make people happy, it buys time away from work for example and time is very valuable

Financial returns from farming are tight and have been for sometime, its a hard way to make a living so is that the root cause for agricultures terrible suicide rate etc ?

Click to expand...

I've seen it from both sides
Livestock farming can be a very lonely isolated stresfull job .apart from the postman you may not see anyone for weeks on end and if you are a shy type it's easy to avoid people if you don't want to see anyone

It is actually scary to sit and think of people I have directly and indirectly known who have committed suicide .

They say middle aged males carry a high risk . I remember a while ago mixing slurry in an open lagoon and watching the Guiness like swirls on the top and hearing a voice in my head saying just jump in and it will all be over. It scared the crap out of me to the point of stepping back as I knew my family would be devastated. I didn’t suffer any out of the normal pressure or stress . Where those thoughts came from I have no idea but I believe it could easily have turned out differently that afternoon.
None of us are immune to these emotions. Made me aware of being careful of mental health.

my best friend hung himself just over a month ago,there were no warning signs and he didnt leave a note explaining why. Its devastating for those who are left behind and i keep asking myself if we should have spotted something or if we are to blame for not sensing something was up!

farmerste said:

my best friend hung himself just over a month ago,there were no warning signs and he didnt leave a note explaining why. Its devastating for those who are left behind and i keep asking myself if we should have spotted something or if we are to blame for not sensing something was up!

Click to expand...

I know of a guy whose friend fed their baby in the middle of the night and left his phone and keys behind and walked to a local bridge and jumped off . They have no idea what it was about either. They had plans for the 2 families to go away for a few days and 2 nights before he finished it . No farming connection. Devastating for those left wondering.

SilliamWhale said:

Probably not (in fact almost certainly not). I think some suicides come from nowhere.

Look you don't think you'd ever be capable of murder do you? But we all are probably! I doubt every suicide is a long drawn out battle with depression - I think it could be over and done with in an hour from first thought even if it never previously entered your head.

Click to expand...

Yes I suppose what I didn’t mention was I knew consciously this isn’t what I wanted but it didn’t stop me from having those thoughts and at that moment I chose not but had I have been thinking differently I may not have been here.

I genuinely cannot place logic on it but was all too real for me .

Brisel said:

Existentialism is the total belief that humans control everything - that's not what I said. It's not what happens but how you deal with it and @glasshouse correctly said it was how you deal with the hand you are given.

Sadly, there's too much of the emotional baggage that goes with a family farm to be handed onto the next generation. Derrick's comment is a perfect example of why it is harder to make a choice to change;



You are not your father and he is not you. The circumstances are different each time & memories are selective.

Click to expand...

Interesting point on ones father particularly on circumstances and decisions.

If they or us, or the generation after get to make the same decision at the exact same time I’d reckon there would be a different outcome at each turn, we are not infallible robots.

All of ours lives could have taken all kinds of twists and turns, if the math is correct, and its suggested it is so to be, all of us have lived out infinitely different lives across infinite realities.

That’s something to consider.

It's called L'appel du vide

http://pimediaonline.co.uk/science-tech/lappel-du-vide-the-call-of-the-void/

A lot of the time it happens when, people are just getting better. Usually on meds. The reason I think (im no doctor) is that when you are on the pills it numbs your sensitivity and therefore makes you less emotionaly attached

DrWazzock said:

In all honesty there just isn't enough money in the job at my level and probably quite a few other folks level.

We carry on while we get some enjoyment out of the job and because we don't want to be the ones that let it go.

We farm on a wing and prayer, on a shoestring, but every major breakdown, bad weather event or other misfortune pushes us a bit closer to not being able to make ends meet. People say oh you will be alright, you can fix it, weather the storm or whatever but sometimes it becomes mathematically and humanly impossible or a Herculean task to meet these expectations and kind of weighs you down. Machinery breakdowns accumulate for me, and roller coaster grain prices make marketing difficult, livestock folk have feed and bedding costs. We all seem to be falling behind the costs imposed by outside professionals for services and such like. Even a trip to the dentist blows my budget.

I will pack up this job if we have to start borrowing from the bank (that's even if they would lend us anything). If, after all these years of work and investment, our cash flow is drying up long term, then we just aren't on the right track. I am kind of glad and relieved to acknowledge this, as this is the fundamental root of a lot of my problems which no amount of drugs, counselling, reaching out, holidays or whatever can solve.

Its not all doom and gloom. We can carry on for the time being. But lets sometimes acknowledge that a complete change of direction can sometimes be a positive rather than a negative move. You cant live working at 110% of your capability for very long. That's what's killing some folk. They have nothing more they can give. They are burnt out. Treat them with kindness.

Click to expand...

i have no knodledge, but from experience its best to read the writing on the wall and act sooner rather than till any remaining equity is gone

DrWazzock said:

In all honesty there just isn't enough money in the job at my level and probably quite a few other folks level.

We carry on while we get some enjoyment out of the job and because we don't want to be the ones that let it go.

We farm on a wing and prayer, on a shoestring, but every major breakdown, bad weather event or other misfortune pushes us a bit closer to not being able to make ends meet. People say oh you will be alright, you can fix it, weather the storm or whatever but sometimes it becomes mathematically and humanly impossible or a Herculean task to meet these expectations and kind of weighs you down. Machinery breakdowns accumulate for me, and roller coaster grain prices make marketing difficult, livestock folk have feed and bedding costs. We all seem to be falling behind the costs imposed by outside professionals for services and such like. Even a trip to the dentist blows my budget.

I will pack up this job if we have to start borrowing from the bank (that's even if they would lend us anything). If, after all these years of work and investment, our cash flow is drying up long term, then we just aren't on the right track. I am kind of glad and relieved to acknowledge this, as this is the fundamental root of a lot of my problems which no amount of drugs, counselling, reaching out, holidays or whatever can solve.

Its not all doom and gloom. We can carry on for the time being. But lets sometimes acknowledge that a complete change of direction can sometimes be a positive rather than a negative move. You cant live working at 110% of your capability for very long. That's what's killing some folk. They have nothing more they can give. They are burnt out. Treat them with kindness.

Click to expand...

Well if you owe nothing, dont pay rent and your tackle does the job, you are better placed than the debt to the eyeballs shiny toys mega acre mega rent man

Clive said:

I often wonder about the old saying that money doesn't buy happiness and agree it can't and money / material things certainly are never as important as health, family, love etc

however wealth buys choices that can make people happy, it buys time away from work for example and time is very valuable

Financial returns from farming are tight and have been for sometime, its a hard way to make a living so is that the root cause for agricultures terrible suicide rate etc ?

Click to expand...

Depression has a trigger I believe and I dare say financial pressure is a contributing factor.

when the stupid cops took my guns i said not to fret, we will treat it as recreational amusement.
If i can get my solicitors ass in gear, i want compo for two years loss of retirement sport,
and 2 years of my name being taken as mud.

i beginning to understand the cops problem, the chief constables office sent me an email this morning to expect a call after 12 today,
nothing came through.. this tells me that incompetance is rife at the very top, the lower ranks obviously take their lead from the top.
the recuitment dept making almost a religion of it and only select in their own image.
typically on friday a fairly new constable called in to collect some ammunition that the property office had wrongly given to my friend.
he arrived with no reciet book, had zero knowledge of procedures and when asked to drop off the correct ammo on his way back to his station,
informed me he was not qualified to handle ammo. i kid you not.
on Sunday they were too busy because of a major incident in tavy saturday night. i rang the local radio station and they had heard nowt,
came to the conclusion the major incident was the fuse going on their station kettle

the whole saga has lifted any gloomy thoughts i may have had before, never seen a tv drama with a script approaching this because it
would have dissmised as tooooo far from reality for even a comic show.
my shooting mate has just been told he must have a mentor with him when using my 223 that is now on his permit untill he gets some experience.
brifly, he served 20 years in the Royal marines before retiring with the rank of sergant , he was qualified as a marksman,
also in range disclipine and range management and undertook the training and safety of recruits when on the ranges.
he has also had much time on active service in various trouble spots around the world. and now he is expected to go shooting with a mentor
that some are afraid to be in the vicinity of if he has a gun.
he has other service experience that he refuses to disscuss, but gets a strange look on his face when asked

depression I think can result when the total of negative occurrences outweighs the positive ones. Too many negative experiences over too long a time can put the brain into a more permanent state of negativity from what I've seen and then the depression sets in, is difficult to shift and can recur often for no apparent reason, then becoming a medical condition that needs treatment, not something that just goes way when circumstances improve.

The key is to know when the negative events are taking too much hold and to do something to distract yourself, alleviate them or avoid them.

A lot of people are unhappy for a very good reason. But it is often very difficult for them to tell people what the reason is, as it can be something like an unsatisfactory marriage where for many reasons there seems to be no way out without causing a lot of upset and hardship so people soldier on. This can be sustainable provided other things don't go wrong and then the load becomes intolerable.

Business and family problems can be similar. It is often nigh on impossible to tell people what is wrong without causing them pain or massive financial upheaval so things get bottled up and pressure builds.

It's the way of life. I don't know what the answers are. Even religions pressurise and make unrealistic demands of people and lock them in to states of inferiority complex and feelings of guilt and inadequacy.

Best to be completely honest with yourself and everybody else. Be frank and honest. Maintaining a pretence that everything is fine doesn't end well.

More people should speak their mind with partners and work colleagues and if they don't like it, then it's maybe tough ink the short term but better long term.

Often the wittiest and smiliest people are simply presenting a brave face to the world - of all the suicide widows I know, all have said "he seemed to be getting better"

Often once someone resolves in their own mind that they have a plan, they find peace within themselves hence the apparent improvement to those closest to them.
At rock bottom you don't have the mental capacity, the danger is on the way up or down.

Often someone more removed or dispassionate like a tanker driver, or rep, can spot the signs if they know what to ask - and watch the shadows appear behind their eyes and polite smiles

Yet strangely also common is the spontaneous type with no history of deep depression; mum's neighbour's late husband got a record price for a bull in the sale, won a game of indoor bowls that evening, drove home, and hung himself with his tie

Out of the blue, and into the black....

Timmy_45 said:

Problem is it's easy to say get help, but getting help itself can also cause problems or make people think it might cause problems. So for example if you go and see your GP about depression, is that going to mean when you come to renew your shotgun certificate it's declined. Also in terms of getting health insurance/life insurance even travel insurance, again having a depression consultation/medication on your GP record can cause real problems. I think that's one reason people are very reluctant to seek help at all.

Click to expand...

I really don't think it would be an issue and if the symptoms were bad enough for it to be an issue, well so be it, at least where shotguns are concerned. Being reluctant to acknowledge an issue with mental health and refusing to seek help can be symptoms of themselves.
There's no point saying "take him on a holiday" either. I suspect that when the black dog strikes there is very little that could persuade someone to go on holiday and even if they did, it would not help.

Clive said:

Financial returns from farming are tight and have been for sometime, its a hard way to make a living so is that the root cause for agricultures terrible suicide rate etc ?

Click to expand...

Actually it probably is in many cases but for the majority, perhaps they have always been prone to depression and some private matter just weighs them down in a deeper depression from time to time. It only takes once to snap mentally to the stage of finality and none of us that haven't experienced it or the stresses involved in that circumstance can really know what it's about.

Clive said:

A situation that will be very familiar to many farmers and is hard to cope with mentally - when you could make a single decision and be financially secure for life and take all those worries away in a stroke .......................but doing so you feel you have let down others (parents who made sacrifice to put you in that situation or or children whose future as a farmer depends upon you etc)

Click to expand...

it amazes me how well farmers put it all behind them after either making or having forced on them to give up.
one near here lived in grinding poverty on his own, big bale silage extended his lifestyle by 15 years, he was using bags instead o wrap and found his armchair exactly
fitted in a bag and the telly resided in another and so no need to fix the roof.
about 3 years ago family forced him to sell up, he banked better than 1 million in cash and was placed in a care home. it took 2 weeks of soaking for his toenails to soften enough to be cut. you should see him, well fed and clean, new clothes and he is the most dapper man in the place , well able to fund trips to wherever he fancies