Compaction can sort itself !

Err, at the risk of being shot down, and admitting I am looking at it from an Australian perspective, I'd say part of your problem is your muck for straw deal. I take it someone bales your crop stubbles ( lots more wheel traffic ) & then farmyard muck gets spread ( more wheel traffic, all on narrow swath widths ) ? How much moisture in your soil when all this extra traffic happens ? Plus, it seems you are removing your straw ?

As I said, I'm talking from an Australian zero till perspective here, so I'm willing to be corrected, but the two CRUCIAL elements to successful zero till here are 1) Minimise ALL wheel traffic where possible 2) RETAIN as much crop residues, stubble, straw etc as possible. Ignore these 2 & it just doesn't work as well

But, this seems quite at odds with what I see with a lot of UK "DD", which is a world away from our zero till

In OUR experience, compaction is caused by tillage & traffic, soils soften remarkably after years of zero till

I guess we may both be shot down with the same bullet.
There's no real substitute for "The Golden Hoof" - muck is good, but the feet that apply it do the wrong thing
Plus the time delay, the soil is unfed for weeks between when the carbon leaves and when it comes back

(In no way is this meant as a criticism, but soils were made by trees and animals not machinery, thus anything else is lesser.
But I do understand the constraints of farming in the UK)

What can you tell us about your covercrops @stroller?
What mixes do you use and how are they cycled?

I agree with Roy and Pete, baling causes a lot of damage.
Baler wheelings, possibly tedder to dry it out.
Telehandler to load trailers, which drive about willy nilly.
Then the spreading operation.
The issues in UK from my experience so far are caused by the large volumes of straw we grow.
I refuse to bale it though as it is the fuel for the life in the soil.
Now I've got a gd drill, I'm having a go with covers where I'm planting linseed, these consist of oats, vetch and oil radish this year. I've someone lined up to graze these with sheep in the second half of February until the end of April if there's enough growth. Planted a little late as it was a late decision so will try again next year whatever happens.
Currently got some lambs grazing spring wheat stubbles where I'm planting winter beans, so there's some good bacteria going on there too.
I'm hoping the feet will disturb the weed seeds, the mouths will eat some weed seeds, and the muck will help the soil biology no end.
There's potential to do much more of this another year if it works out OK.

Badshot said:

I agree with Roy and Pete, baling causes a lot of damage.
Baler wheelings, possibly tedder to dry it out.
Telehandler to load trailers, which drive about willy nilly.
Then the spreading operation.
The issues in UK from my experience so far are caused by the large volumes of straw we grow.
I refuse to bale it though as it is the fuel for the life in the soil.
Now I've got a gd drill, I'm having a go with covers where I'm planting linseed, these consist of oats, vetch and oil radish this year. I've someone lined up to graze these with sheep in the second half of February until the end of April if there's enough growth. Planted a little late as it was a late decision so will try again next year whatever happens.
Currently got some lambs grazing spring wheat stubbles where I'm planting winter beans, so there's some good bacteria going on there too.
I'm hoping the feet will disturb the weed seeds, the mouths will eat some weed seeds, and the muck will help the soil biology no end.
There's potential to do much more of this another year if it works out OK.

Click to expand...

That's the BIG difference between us & the UK. We leave the straw, we value it & all our planting equipment is designed with high trashflow in mind, whereas most U.K. DD planting equipment I see would block up in an instant with any stubble cover . . . Even when we were " minimum tilling " our gear had more clearance. But, I see more zero till type equipment, such as the disc machines JD 750 etc appearing in the U.K.
I understand your straw levels are much higher than ours & present greater challenges, but I think you are on the right track with introducing livestock to trample it down & add some biology to help the decomposition. High density, planned, controlled mob grazing will certainly do that for you, while maybe adding a few £££ to the bottom line
As for compaction, livestock only compact the surface, the compaction from wheels, especially heavy wheels, can go down a lot deeper than any plough will work . . .
Thanks for your post, it's encouraged me no end, one of the more positive on TFF among all the "we'll be rooned" ones

Intersesting day with Philip Wright and David Purdy yesterday (despite me being late before somone chirps up) a lot of talk on biology roots nutition and carbon but also some soils ie clay with a high proportion of silt may need a hand. Must say the long dry spell has done more good than any subsoiler could for us this year, and all muck has been spread with minimal damage.

Farmer Roy said:

That's the BIG difference between us & the UK. We leave the straw, we value it & all our planting equipment is designed with high trashflow in mind, whereas most U.K. DD planting equipment I see would block up in an instant with any stubble cover . . . Even when we were " minimum tilling " our gear had more clearance. But, I see more zero till type equipment, such as the disc machines JD 750 etc appearing in the U.K.
I understand your straw levels are much higher than ours & present greater challenges, but I think you are on the right track with introducing livestock to trample it down & add some biology to help the decomposition. High density, planned, controlled mob grazing will certainly do that for you, while maybe adding a few £££ to the bottom line
As for compaction, livestock only compact the surface, the compaction from wheels, especially heavy wheels, can go down a lot deeper than any plough will work . . .
Thanks for your post, it's encouraged me no end, one of the more positive on TFF among all the "we'll be rooned" ones

Click to expand...

I've been DD for a while now, I can see the benefits, one of my biggest challenges is stopping others driving all over the place.

I've had lots of hairpinning planting the osr, but I've a crop established in a very dry year so it hasn't caused much of an issue.
Then found the drill was too light drilling the oats, now added more weight to it.
It's a learning curve.
One thing that stuck in my mind was a video on YouTube by an aussie.
It showed a plant root, DD compared to d shallow till.
DD went down, shallow till went through the loose soil, hit the unmoved soil and travelled along.
Realised at that point that sometimes less is definitely more.

I thought the muck for straw would be better than just chopping, the indices have all improved since I started and that's without buying in any P & k. The muck comes from a fattening unit, they have no storage for straw so I deal with the baling (they pay the spreading contractors) trailers stay on the tramlines and I only have a small manitou. The spreading contractors are pretty good and I make sure they stick to the tramlines when running empty. Covers are a mix, this year oats,linseed, vetch,buckwheat, crimson clover, Persian clover. I added some Daikon raddish a couple years ago but had a lot of volunteers growing in the following crops, epecially where it was grazed with sheep and in the tramlines, it looks like the raddish that was either grazed or squashed by the sprayer didn't take in the glyphosate then re grew.

Farmer Roy said:

That's the BIG difference between us & the UK. We leave the straw, we value it & all our planting equipment is designed with high trashflow in mind, whereas most U.K. DD planting equipment I see would block up in an instant with any stubble cover . . . Even when we were " minimum tilling " our gear had more clearance. But, I see more zero till type equipment, such as the disc machines JD 750 etc appearing in the U.K.
I understand your straw levels are much higher than ours & present greater challenges, but I think you are on the right track with introducing livestock to trample it down & add some biology to help the decomposition. High density, planned, controlled mob grazing will certainly do that for you, while maybe adding a few £££ to the bottom line
As for compaction, livestock only compact the surface, the compaction from wheels, especially heavy wheels, can go down a lot deeper than any plough will work . . .
Thanks for your post, it's encouraged me no end, one of the more positive on TFF among all the "we'll be rooned" ones

Click to expand...

With our conditions down here - similar to the aforementioned silty clays and rainfall, a 6 tonne tractor has showed compaction to near on a metre (at field capacity)

Which is why I have a sub 4 tonne machine, which only goes on the field dualled up, in summer.. however quaint that is, all the surrounding farmers let alone contractors have much heavier gear.

This past dry summer you could see where the baler tractor had been, the summer before; when the grass was burning off it was quite an noticeable difference, and this is on permanent grassland in a rainfall area.

Every pass is doing damage, what you could get away with in the Super Major and 135 just doesn't equate with 15 tonne machines in the wet.

Using machines as your only tools must compound the compaction problem no end - our example, we carry at peak 1800kg of livestock/ha x 1:40th of the farm area, so that's 77 tonnes of meat and bone evenly spread over a hectare, returning once every 40 days.

That's only 7.7kg/m2 divided by 40 days= 193.5 grams per square metre on average (and that's our peak stocking rate during summer, halve that for an annual average)

I guess what I'm saying is that compaction and soil health issues are a machinery problem, not a ruminant problem!

That's quite interesting @stroller, without knowing your geography too well is it feasible to borrow livestock to graze your covers?
Even if you are effectively giving the covers away, it ends up placed right where it grew, in less than 24 hours from when it was growing... whereas the straw is gone today, and the muck goes on much later?

That deficit is possibly the difference, in my limited expertise with cropping those with the most noticeable results re. compaction and soil structuring have something always available for the soil biology - never a gap - whether that be root exudates or litter and dung being trampled in.
More fungii promotion=more glomalin=better aggregation=better water cycle=better resilience
Soluble N=the opposite

Again, not a criticism, but it could be that missing piece of your puzzle IMO.

Also, peas/beans due to their marketing and harvesting woes have become unpopular crops here but are an amazing plant as far as root depth and N fixation goes - never mind the protein!
I found roots at over 4 feet depth in 50 days.

stroller said:

I thought the muck for straw would be better than just chopping, the indices have all improved since I started and that's without buying in any P & k. The muck comes from a fattening unit, they have no storage for straw so I deal with the baling (they pay the spreading contractors) trailers stay on the tramlines and I only have a small manitou. The spreading contractors are pretty good and I make sure they stick to the tramlines when running empty. Covers are a mix, this year oats,linseed, vetch,buckwheat, crimson clover, Persian clover. I added some Daikon raddish a couple years ago but had a lot of volunteers growing in the following crops, epecially where it was grazed with sheep and in the tramlines, it looks like the raddish that was either grazed or squashed by the sprayer didn't take in the glyphosate then re grew.

Click to expand...

The muck for straw is good, but doesn't come without its own issues to manage.
For instance, I had some fibrophos type stuff spread, got a call the day after it rained saying they were coming that morning as my unmoved stubbles would take the machine.
I called back and told them no chance, come back when it's dry.

stroller said:

This year I have had to resort to subsoiling, yields have been reducing, more so this year which showed up the poor rooting depth. I have been DDing for 5 years and min tilling for 10 years before that, I have been doing a muck for straw swop for 8 years and have had cover crops before spring cropping..Not all the fields need subsoiling, but I can't work out why some and not others need it, where am I going wrong?

Click to expand...

I'd hold fire on too many conclusions yet. Tell us what the yields are next year in subsoiling vs not subsoiling. Yields have been reducing? Well this year was a tough year for all spring crops and I'd say a poorish year for Winter Crops which suffered in the wet winter ie bit waterlogged.

When you subsoil presumably you are doing it to shatter a plough pan? If not then are you doing it in the hope of better drainage? The soil will slump after.

I'm a muck for straw man too and generally we don't make too much mess. I often dig holes right behind baler to see any difference - personally I'm sceptical that it causes an issue that subsoiliong solves

I've done a couple of half fields, I only have a 3m drill, an amazone primera, that is quite heavy. I suppose I could get a contractor with a 6m drill but would that be any advantage? Yes it's wider but twice as heavy and a much bigger tractor, and it would be cash going out.

What damage is a heavy tractor on a subsoiler doing? What damage is the bottom.of the subsoiler tine doing underneath?

I've pulled the shakearator (about 10" deep) through a few headlands after spring crops this year where I drilled when it was too wet (with the benefit of hindsight).
Anywhere that the slots opened up, I've done. I thought that this was a good indicator of soil condition. I will see the affect by next harvest.
My worst wheat this time was after some rape stubble that I worked to 4" deep to level the ground that had developed ridges and troughs as the soil corrected itself after a few years of notill. The poorest yielding fields looked the best in early spring, but by late April had been overtaken by the notill field next door (also after rape). Who knows what the result would have been if we had a drier spring and wetter summer.

Farmer Roy said:

Err, at the risk of being shot down, and admitting I am looking at it from an Australian perspective, I'd say part of your problem is your muck for straw deal. I take it someone bales your crop stubbles ( lots more wheel traffic ) & then farmyard muck gets spread ( more wheel traffic, all on narrow swath widths ) ? How much moisture in your soil when all this extra traffic happens ? Plus, it seems you are removing your straw ?

As I said, I'm talking from an Australian zero till perspective here, so I'm willing to be corrected, but the two CRUCIAL elements to successful zero till here are 1) Minimise ALL wheel traffic where possible 2) RETAIN as much crop residues, stubble, straw etc as possible. Ignore these 2 & it just doesn't work as well

But, this seems quite at odds with what I see with a lot of UK "DD", which is a world away from our zero till

In OUR experience, compaction is caused by tillage & traffic, soils soften remarkably after years of zero till

Click to expand...

One thing too remember is the Yield difference between UK and Australia , this results in larger volumes of straw. It is one reason why as farming here moves away from the plough much more straw is being baled.

@stroller what are your headlands like? In my fields that are working well the headlands are great and often yield as well as the middle of the field. On my worst, slow draining, high silt patch the headlands are poor.

If compaction is an issue, the headlands should be noticeably worse?

Fuzzy said:

One thing too remember is the Yield difference between UK and Australia , this results in larger volumes of straw. It is one reason why as farming here moves away from the plough much more straw is being baled.

Click to expand...

oh yeah, I realise that, but we can have pretty high stubble loads also, especially with wheat, barley or sorghum. Obviously our average is lower than yours, but Ive planted through full stubble on 2 - 3 t / acre cereal yields. In some pretty wet conditions also
I mentioned a few posts ago that high density controlled mob grazing ( & the subsequent trampling ) would be a tool id use, in preference to baling
I understand the reason for removing your straw, but here, zero till WITHOUT straw just doesn't work as well, a lot of the benefits of the system are lost
personally, as a planting contractor, I have planted into a lot of different conditions. I certainly wouldn't advocate the removal of straw by baling ( wheel tracks & compaction ) from what ive seen.

but, whatever works for you aye, each to their own & all that. Not telling anyone what to do, just commenting from 30 + years of zero till experience, some of which may be applicable to another environment

SilliamWhale said:

What damage is a heavy tractor on a subsoiler doing? What damage is the bottom.of the subsoiler tine doing underneath?

Click to expand...

Don't know, I'll tell you after next harvest!

Richard III said:

@stroller what are your headlands like? In my fields that are working well the headlands are great and often yield as well as the middle of the field. On my worst, slow draining, high silt patch the headlands are poor.


If compaction is an issue, the headlands should be noticeably worse?

Click to expand...

It is silty clay loam, headlands are worse in the fields that are compacted. I've noticed that I can't grow osr out to the hedge anymore, I think its a combination of compaction from the hedger and roots from the hedge near the surface, hopefully a pass with the devil's tool will cut those off.

stroller said:

It is silty clay loam, headlands are worse in the fields that are compacted. I've noticed that I can't grow osr out to the hedge anymore, I think its a combination of compaction from the hedger and roots from the hedge near the surface, hopefully a pass with the devil's tool will cut those off.

Click to expand...

I'd say if you have a silty clay loam and highish rainfall you will probably have to work harder than some to make No Till work. Everyone's soil is different though.

On my most difficult fields I'd say it's not compaction that is the issue, but slow drainage restricting root growth over winter. A wet winter = bad crop, then same field, no loosening and dry winter = good crop.

I've tried strips with a subsoiler and not seen a benefit. However I've found that pulling a mole drainer through at 16" depth has let me grow a great crop of rape this year on land that I would normally not entertain rape on. The rape failed on a control strip. It seems to let the water down faster to the drains (4ft deep clays, with no gravel).

Richard III said:

I'd say if you have a silty clay loam and highish rainfall you will probably have to work harder than some to make No Till work. Everyone's soil is different though.

On my most difficult fields I'd say it's not compaction that is the issue, but slow drainage restricting root growth over winter. A wet winter = bad crop, then same field, no loosening and dry winter = good crop.

I've tried strips with a subsoiler and not seen a benefit. However I've found that pulling a mole drainer through at 16" depth has let me grow a great crop of rape this year on land that I would normally not entertain rape on. The rape failed on a control strip. It seems to let the water down faster to the drains (4ft deep clays, with no gravel).

Click to expand...

What is this water that you speak of?

We tried pulling the bomb through one of our wetter fields this week and the clay wouldn't hold the shape of the mole, it just cracked up.. Need a lot more rain before it'll be worth doing, then we probably will not want to be there. I think though that you are spot on on the slow drainage, it's what this field has, which is why we wanted to mole it. We'd lost the plans so got a neighbour to take some snaps from his drone at the heat of the dry time, assuming that the drains would show up. Which they almost did, but not as well as hedges pushed out in the 1960's and ponds filled in etc. Sorry gone off-topic, but you have to admit it's all jolly interesting...

martian said:

What is this water that you speak of?

We tried pulling the bomb through one of our wetter fields this week and the clay wouldn't hold the shape of the mole, it just cracked up.. Need a lot more rain before it'll be worth doing, then we probably will not want to be there. I think though that you are spot on on the slow drainage, it's what this field has, which is why we wanted to mole it. We'd lost the plans so got a neighbour to take some snaps from his drone at the heat of the dry time, assuming that the drains would show up. Which they almost did, but not as well as hedges pushed out in the 1960's and ponds filled in etc. Sorry gone off-topic, but you have to admit it's all jolly interesting...

Click to expand...

Your trouble John is that you haven't got any proper clay to form a mole in. This had dried out after having been done two days previous to the photo but you can see what a perfect channel it is making underground. No rain for years and years.


Answer to the OP, you haven't been going long enough to get to the stage where the soil becomes uncompactable, when you can run around with loaded grain trailers and sprayers, and anything else without making a mark. You know you are there when you can't find the headland tramline when spraying off stubbles before drilling. The first few years you have to be obsessive about keeping off the soil as much as possible, and anything that has to go must have dirty great wide tires, including the combine. I used to go berserk if someone went driving across my stubble at harvest in a land rover or even a car but now I couldn't care less what drives around. Even the hare coursing pikies don't make much mess in the middle of winter.