Death Of Democracy

Hindsight · Feb 22, 2019

Yacker said:
Democracy is not a useful tool for the extreme right or left under normal circumstances and this is why most true democracies tend to tread the middle ground. Brexit provided an opportunity for the extremes to "improve" their position.

The current battle in Parliament is not between the extreme right (ERG) and JC/McDonnell on the left - that battle is yet to happen.

It should be remembered that Winston Churchill (not a fan personally) in 1940 was viewed by the established political leadership as a traitor. In respect to the 11 MPs who have resigned from their respective parties i applaud (dont always agree with some of them) their honesty. As pointed out elsewhere it would be good for more MPs to step up.

MPs are primarily elected as individuals and as i "pasted" in elsewhere in this forum an MPs responsibility extend way past "blind" commitment to party and people. The electorate are given a regular opportunity to vote on their MP however as we dont have Proportional Representation and 2 party machines that dictate candidates we are in a poor position.

I agree with comments on QuestionTime about the fact that we have two parties that will do anything to keep the status quo.

JC does not want to be PM he wants to sling s**t from the opppositon benches.

TM wants us all to do as we are told, non of the ERG including JRM want anyth8ng to do with govering our country, like JC they just want to sling s**t.

JC has lost the next election for Labour, the Tories will bring true right wing policies to bear, these policies will once again be their downfall, Labour under new leadership will win back power around 2032. What they inherit depends upon the Tory party and its approach to investment and creating new welath for ordinary people. I think 12 years is long enough to prove/disprove the brexit "principle"

In 2011 I voted for adoption of AV in the referendum that year.

I did not consider AV as necessarily the best form of proportional representation but as it was what was on offer and in my view a substantial improvement on the first past the post system I voted for.

Why did I vote for in that referendum. Because I consider our society has changed substantially in the period since the Victorian Reform Acts and the 1918 enfranchisement of women, and since I gained the vote several moons ago and continues to do so thus what was a class based tribal two party electoral system suited to those times does not fit our modern society. I appreciate the argument for a strong government based around two parties. But it leaves to many folk disenfranchised.

I thought the electoral college approach in the European Parliament elections an appropriate working solution.

Hey ho, nought will change as the Tories and Labour will stick to the current busted flush as it suits them both.

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

Yacker said:
Your wrong arcobob an MP represents their constituencie in its entirety. They are elected by their constituents. The MP then chooses to fillow a party line.

Parliament is littered with historical examples of MPs voting against there consituents wishes (multiple wars for a start)

There are also many ardent Brexit MPs representing constituencies that voted remain.

To some extent I think you have misunderstood my point and your view differs little from mine. My point is that MPs are elected by constituents to represent them but they also use a political ticket to support them. I do not believe that party politics have changed that much since the last election to cause this dissent and if these MPs could not see the direction in which their party was heading at the time of their selection and election they were ignoring the obvious.

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

Hindsight said:
In 2011 I voted for adoption of AV in the referendum that year.

I did not consider AV as necessarily the best form of proportional representation but as it was what was on offer and in my view a substantial improvement on the first past the post system I voted for.

Why did I vote for in that referendum. Because I consider our society has changed substantially in the period since the Victorian Reform Acts and the 1918 enfranchisement of women, and since I gained the vote several moons ago and continues to do so thus what was a class based tribal two party electoral system suited to those times does not fit our modern society. I appreciate the argument for a strong government based around two parties. But it leaves to many folk disenfranchised.

I thought the electoral college approach in the European Parliament elections an appropriate working solution.

Hey ho, nought will change as the Tories and Labour will stick to the current busted flush as it suits them both.

I have a lot of sympathy for that view but the current Brexit wrangle seems to transcend party lines to a great extent. The LibDems are the only ones with consistent Europhile views and that is the main reason they only have 11 MPs.

Yacker · Feb 22, 2019

So how do we square away Brexiteer MPs who represent remain voting constituencies? I dont have a problem with that as i see that as a MP standing up for their views and doing what they think is best for their constituencies?

I will take a conviction politician over any other type any day, i would have Thatcher (and god knows i will never forgive her) over Theresa May. This is why i cant come to terms with many MPs including JRM/JC etc as they are "representing" their true views JC wants a heavily nationalised UK with Jam for all and we all know that wont work. JRM is a fundamentalist Catholic with extreme views on abortion, gay marrige, homosexuality and other "things" but stands as a tolerant one nation Tory?

Far too much smoke and mirrors and deception. I saw an ex Labour MP on QT last night (someone i have had little time for) let his political mask slip and tell it like it is over Shami Chakrabarti - not enough of this goes on.

Hindsight · Feb 22, 2019

arcobob said:
I have a lot of sympathy for that view but the current Brexit wrangle seems to transcend party lines to a great extent. The LibDems are the only ones with consistent Europhile views and that is the main reason they only have 11 MPs.

Yes, concur that Brexit transcends the politics of the main two party system. But your dragging the Lib Dems only 11 seats into your reply to infer Europhile views were in the minority in the general electorate is may I suggest somewhat disingenuous. My comment on the GE result of 2017 is best seen, I believe, by this brief analysis of the national votes cast.

Lib Dems won 7.4% of the national vote, which equates to 48MPs but in practice gained 12 MPs which is 1.8% of the Parliamentary seats.

The DUP won 0.9% of the national vote yet have 10 MPs (holding the country to ransom!?) which is 1.5% of the Parliamentary seats.

May I suggest the current system actually favoured the minority party UKIP who gained 1.8% of the national vote, no MPs but via the Tory Party within a Party (ERG) seem to have some 40+ MPs in Parlaiment.

I contend the constituency based electoral system is outmoded and in effect sending the wrong political messages. We see just a few swing constituencies (100 maybe) with maybe 200,000 key voters decide the election result. Ridiculous. Thus a wider regional electoral college type system based around proportional representation is more democratic. A wider regional based system as per the European MEP model would reduce / remove the tribal ward based anomalies of the 100 swing constituencies.

Hey ho. There you go. My vote is always irrelevant as I get a Tory regardless, albeit at the moment on Brexit a 'wet' Lib Dem Tory who his local Tory Party are trying to deselect.

Best wishes,

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

I am not sure that the Brexiteer should have stood at the last election in view of the fact that he knew the referendum voting pattern in his own constituency before his election. If he made his constituents completely aware of his views before being elected then I have little sympathy for the electorate.

Yacker · Feb 22, 2019

Well that cuts both ways arcobob.....

Henarar · Feb 22, 2019

turbo said:
Totally agree,Europe red lines over free movement of people have caused the problems ,if only they had changed their red lines when Cameron asked we would not be in the position we are now

Quite but not just free movement, there were lots of reasons folk voted to leave the perfect EU
It was remainers that started Brexit
Both sides have drawn lines and if there is no acceptable compromise well thats it

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

Yacker said:
Well that cuts both ways arcobob.....

Absolutely correct

Bomber_Harris · Feb 22, 2019

Henarar said:
Quite but not just free movement, there were lots of reasons folk voted to leave the perfect EU
It was remainers that started Brexit
Both sides have drawn lines and if there is no acceptable compromise well thats it

There is no acceptable compromise amongst those who voted to Leave. Leave voters are also split, some want to crash out with no regard to the economy and jobs, others want a structured withdrawal or a custom arrangement like Norway ++

I actually don't have a problem with Brexit, in principle, but in my view the only way you can unpick 40 years of integration without destroying jobs and the economy is to take your time and implement it over a period of at least 10 years, and even that might not be enough. I think it took Greenland 3 or 4 years for a structured withdrawal and their economy only revolves around one thing and that's fish!

Werzle · Feb 22, 2019

If the remainers had accepted the democratic result the EU would have seen a more united uk and negotiated with us in a different manner and the uk would have had a stronger negotiating position. Even if people think we will be worse off we would have had certainty and been able to plan better for it. Not knowing is dragging everything and everybody down .

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

Bomber_Harris said:
There is no acceptable compromise amongst those who voted to Leave. Leave voters are also split, some want to crash out with no regard to the economy and jobs, others want a structured withdrawal or a custom arrangement like Norway ++

I actually don't have a problem with Brexit, in principle, but in my view the only way you can unpick 40 years of integration without destroying jobs and the economy is to take your time and implement it over a period of at least 10 years, and even that might not be enough. I think it took Greenland 3 or 4 years for a structured withdrawal and their economy only revolves around one thing and that's fish!

That would be an ideal solution but for two things. Firstly it would involve at least two changes of government and secondly the withdrawal period would have to contain a rigid progressive and irrevocable timetable---a long term agreement in other words. Such an agreement would be impossible to achieve without conceding to a mega backstop.

caveman · Feb 22, 2019

I like the idea put forward some time ago, by I think @Danllan ,of 20% of the seats being up for grabs every year.
This would make the direction of the ongoing business of the day more relevant to the process.
Also. There would be a smaller and more concentrated group of probably more qualified and relevent candidates chasing seats.

arcobob · Feb 22, 2019

Werzle said:
If the remainers had accepted the democratic result the EU would have seen a more united uk and negotiated with us in a different manner and the uk would have had a stronger negotiating position. Even if people think we will be worse off we would have had certainty and been able to plan better for it. Not knowing is dragging everything and everybody down .

I feel that what you say is true but much of the EU intransigence is down to one Anthony Blair undermining our position in Brussels.

Werzle · Feb 22, 2019

arcobob said:
I feel that what you say is true but much of the EU intransigence is down to one Anthony Blair undermining our position in Brussels.

Its disgusting that he has been able and allowed to have meetings with the EU , Blair is a traitor to democracy.

Yacker · Feb 22, 2019

Werzle said:
If the remainers had accepted the democratic result the EU would have seen a more united uk and negotiated with us in a different manner and the uk would have had a stronger negotiating position. Even if people think we will be worse off we would have had certainty and been able to plan better for it. Not knowing is dragging everything and everybody down .

With all due respect this is rubbish, the EUs position has been virtually 100% consistent from day 1. Our govs position has been 100% inconsistent since day 1.

This is not about remainers v Brexiteers it's a s**t goverment thats s**t scared of its own (ERG) shadow...

Its about PM shaking hands on a deal with the EU that the EU assumed was good to go and lo and behold she had never discussed/reviewed the deal with anyone including her own party.

Last time i checked "democracy" i can hold what ever view i want indefinitely. My ideological standpoint is different from yours and that means at no point do i have to support your decision in any shape or form as you have with me.

Yacker · Feb 22, 2019

I agree Blair should keep his nose out, his day is done and he like Thatcher laid the foundation for this particular s**t show.

Werzle · Feb 22, 2019

Just remember in the future that any vote, even those that are won by people with views like yours can be ignored now that democracy is to be rubbished and ignored. Perhaps in the future we will sort problems with violence like other countries that are undemocratic

baabaa · Feb 22, 2019

Werzle said:
Its disgusting that he has been able and allowed to have meetings with the EU , Blair is a traitor to democracy.

his global foundation looking for eu funding ?
some may find this position interesting
https://careers.institute.global/vacancies/181/institutional-funding-manager.html
why anyone would want to fund anything connected to bliar beyond me
when was tax payers in the different countries asked if they wanted to fund such an entity?

Ncap · Feb 22, 2019

'EU intransigence'? You're having a laugh. It was totally clear from the start what is and isn't possible. Hint: No non-member gets the same or better deal than a member. Not too difficult to understand, unless you're a typical Brit exceptionalist with an obsession with WW2, Triumphs and BMC, strawberries and cream - along with crap B&B, rubbish catering, useless public transport. I could go on.

Death Of Democracy

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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