Tariffs

ollie989898 · Mar 27, 2021

wanton dwarf said:
I've seen you state all these principles before.

But you are training to work in the NHS which is 100%+ funded by the state.

The truth is these principles only work in destroying jobs locally in a globalist world, whilst those who defend their jobs/industry are able to dominate markets, a classic example being the French, Germans and Chinese.

The second truth is that unless that sector has enough mass within a country that industry dies, case in point the UK steel industry. Of course the UK steel industry WAS competative, until the EU & HMG & "Climate Taxes" got involved.

My intended employment is irrelevant.

I've just told you how a capitalist economy works- you agree with me that more consumption and more transactions is the aim of the game, no?

The UK steel industry was going to contract massively, no matter what anyone did. Thatcher saw what was coming and merely sped things up. She was no fool but could have made the process a lot more sympathetic. The same thing happened in Germany and France and the Nordic countries. The Germans sold off entire steel mills to the Chinese who even dismantled some of it and shipped it home.

The cost of energy in the UK is going to be the problem. And as for coal- come off it, we don't really use the stuff any more. They are making Drax 100% wood chips now as well. Tony Blair nailed that coffin shut when he opted for gas powerstations. Could have gone for modern coal plants if he wanted, with the right technology they can be relatively cheap but gas was cheap cheap cheap at the time.

wanton dwarf · Mar 27, 2021

ollie989898 said:
My intended employment is irrelevant.

I've just told you how a capitalist economy works- you agree with me that more consumption and more transactions is the aim of the game, no?

The UK steel industry was going to contract massively, no matter what anyone did. Thatcher saw what was coming and merely sped things up. She was no fool but could have made the process a lot more sympathetic. The same thing happened in Germany and France and the Nordic countries. The Germans sold off entire steel mills to the Chinese who even dismantled some of it and shipped it home.

The cost of energy in the UK is going to be the problem. And as for coal- come off it, we don't really use the stuff any more. They are making Drax 100% wood chips now as well. Tony Blair nailed that coffin shut when he opted for gas powerstations. Could have gone for modern coal plants if he wanted, with the right technology they can be relatively cheap but gas was cheap cheap cheap at the time.

Oh it is relevant ..

I don't totally agree with your generalised analogies .. because it should really be apparant especially during Covid that 50% of the economy is linked to government spending which is obviously not Capitalist. In fact during Covid I wouldn't be surprised to see that rise to 70%.

USA, France & Germany have ensured they keep their industries by protecting and supporting them.

Whilst the UK has London Centric very rich Politicians destroying the working lives of UK millions. Most peope are sick to death of these false arguments.

If Capitalism is so great .. then lets see it in Westminster, Civil Service, NHS, Local Government, HMRC, EA etc. Let's see the Civil Service out sourced ..

ollie989898 · Mar 27, 2021

wanton dwarf said:
Oh it is relevant ..

I don't totally agree with your generalised analogies .. because it should really be apparant especially during Covid that 50% of the economy is linked to government spending which is obviously not Capitalist. In fact during Covid I wouldn't be surprised to see that rise to 70%.

USA, France & Germany have ensured they keep their industries by protecting and supporting them.

Whilst the UK has London Centric very rich Politicians destroying the working lives of UK millions. Most peope are sick to death of these false arguments.

If Capitalism is so great .. then lets see it in Westminster, Civil Service, NHS, Local Government, HMRC, EA etc. Let's see the Civil Service out sourced ..

I'd have no issue with seeing vast parts of the civil service or NHS or any of the above outsourced. In many cases it already is.

50% of the economy being linked to government spending does not surprise me in the slightest. Neither does the fact that only 56% of Britons actually earn enough to pay any income tax if I am honest.

USA/France/Germany all suffered in exactly the same way. The USA car industry was borked by the Japanese just as the British industry was. The Koreans showed the world how to build ships too, and mullered the rest of the world in the process. The French coal industry- errr... wonder what happened there when their government opted for mostly nuclear power.

Even government spending relies upon the idea that increased transactions and consumption provides long term benefit, not least because the government taxes each one giving them more chances to recoup their money. It's why the world consumes debt. £10 lent to 4 different entities in a chain actually causes £40 of economic activity. Crazy but true.

wanton dwarf · Mar 27, 2021

ollie989898 said:
Even government spending relies upon the idea that increased transactions and consumption provides long term benefit, not least because the government taxes each one giving them more chances to recoup their money. It's why the world consumes debt. £10 lent to 4 different entities in a chain actually causes £40 of economic activity. Crazy but true.

Maybe but I think you'll find the end point for most of those transactions is property built by companies owned by politicians, their friends and relations.

My local MP's background is a company which processes veg. However he's trying to build a 300+ housing estate next to a canal.

stewart · Mar 27, 2021

ollie989898 said:
I'd have no issue with seeing vast parts of the civil service or NHS or any of the above outsourced. In many cases it already is.

50% of the economy being linked to government spending does not surprise me in the slightest. Neither does the fact that only 56% of Britons actually earn enough to pay any income tax if I am honest.

USA/France/Germany all suffered in exactly the same way. The USA car industry was borked by the Japanese just as the British industry was. The Koreans showed the world how to build ships too, and mullered the rest of the world in the process. The French coal industry- errr... wonder what happened there when their government opted for mostly nuclear power.

Even government spending relies upon the idea that increased transactions and consumption provides long term benefit, not least because the government taxes each one giving them more chances to recoup their money. It's why the world consumes debt. £10 lent to 4 different entities in a chain actually causes £40 of economic activity. Crazy but true.

The US and UK car industries were “borked” (whatever that means) by their own inability to keep up with what the consumer wanted, the US sorted itself out pretty quickly, the UK car industry is starting to get up to speed now, possibly helped by having foreign investors promoting foreign work practices instead of being concerned who has the keys to the executive bathroom.
Son in law has just bought a new Defender, good car and despite me only buying Toyotas I have to admit the Defender has the edge on them.

ollie989898 · Mar 28, 2021

stewart said:
The US and UK car industries were “borked” (whatever that means) by their own inability to keep up with what the consumer wanted, the US sorted itself out pretty quickly, the UK car industry is starting to get up to speed now, possibly helped by having foreign investors promoting foreign work practices instead of being concerned who has the keys to the executive bathroom.
Son in law has just bought a new Defender, good car and despite me only buying Toyotas I have to admit the Defender has the edge on them.

No, the Japanese turned up and taught the Brits and Americans what quality and efficient car manufacture really looked like. Prior to this they had been living in a bubble.

stewart · Mar 28, 2021

ollie989898 said:
No, the Japanese turned up and taught the Brits and Americans what quality and efficient car manufacture really looked like. Prior to this they had been living in a bubble.

Yes that's essentially what I said, the consumers wanted quality cars produced efficiently, the US and UK were just turning out the same old cars without the extras that everyone wanted, electric windows etc, The Japanese gave the consumer what they wanted, the Americans upped their game pretty quickly and US cars improved, the UK were slower to react, they have done so now which could be due to a change of management.

Brisel · Mar 28, 2021

The British car manufacturers couldn’t change in the face of the competition from Japan. Outdated management, poor quality control (Lucas electrics!) and a workforce heavily unionised that would not change either all contributed to overpriced and bad cars.

holwellcourtfarm · Mar 28, 2021

ollie989898 said:
It would be rather easier to convert a Hindu into eating bacon and a Muslim into eating roast beef I would think.

I see no issue with the populace eating rice instead of potatoes.

The main issue with protectionism is that it basically reduces consumer choice and actually costs the consumer more money as a result. In a world comprised of capitalist societies and marketplaces, we know that financial benefit is derived from every transaction and bit of business done, on every little piece of consumption. Why then would you install any kind of punitive barrier that seeks to prevent these?

Tariffs, non tariff barriers and levies and other instruments are anti-competitive and hinder the economic development of other countries. We should recognise economic development in far off lands as being advantageous to ourselves: the wealthier they become the better able they are to buy Volkswagens, wind turbines and Rolls Royce engines.

wanton dwarf said:
I've seen you state all these principles before.

But you are training to work in the NHS which is 100%+ funded by the state.

The truth is these principles only work in destroying jobs locally in a globalist world, whilst those who defend their jobs/industry are able to dominate markets, a classic example being the French, Germans and Chinese.

The second truth is that unless that sector has enough mass within a country that industry dies, case in point the UK steel industry. Of course the UK steel industry WAS competative, until the EU & HMG & "Climate Taxes" got involved.

A free market is only truly fair and equitable when no costs are treated as "externalities", something we've yet to find a way to achieve. Until then it is just a way to "offshore" the damage in many cases.

I fully accept @stewart 's point that some of what we currently produce here can be produced at a lower cost, economically and environmentally, in other countries including delivery to our doors. I question whether that's really true for apples though.......

wanton dwarf · Mar 28, 2021

holwellcourtfarm said:
I fully accept @stewart 's point that some of what we currently produce here can be produced at a lower cost, economically and environmentally, in other countries including delivery to our doors. I question whether that's really true for apples though.......

A sheep in the UK doesn't have to be sent 11,964 miles from NZ to the UK. The pretense this is "Environmentally friendly" is false.

@stewart went from the UK to NZ. He thinks importing Sheep to the UK is good because someone in NZ says so (unsurprisingly).

I would rather goods were slightly more expensive in the UK, the resultant production methods generate some jobs, pay taxes-more tax revenue and everyone in the UK have a livelihood. Whilst at the same time not sending goods 11,964 miles across the ocean polluting the seas and the air on it's way.

Somebody has to pay taxes for the "Environmentalists" to get paid for sitting around doing very little.

wanton dwarf · Mar 28, 2021

Brisel said:
The British car manufacturers couldn’t change in the face of the competition from Japan. Outdated management, poor quality control (Lucas electrics!) and a workforce heavily unionised that would not change either all contributed to overpriced and bad cars.

The same people that work in foreign owned car plants today worked in British car plants.

The difference is those that ran the companies. If I remember correctly the 3 directors who ran Rover into the ground paid themselves £10s millions whilst doing nothing to upgrade the factory.

They didn't give a rats bum about the 1000s of workers dependant on Rover .. if I remember correctly they came from a London City background, UK University "Educated".

The workers could have adapted and TBH lets face it the Unions were correct in their outlook that managemnet wanted to screw the workers. Management just want to make a fast buck. The German's do it better by having Unions & Management running the company.

TBH I wouldn't trust any UK accountant or UK banker to run anything. They'd be instantly looking how to make a killing and sell the company.

wanton dwarf · Mar 28, 2021

ollie989898 said:
No, the Japanese turned up and taught the Brits and Americans what quality and efficient car manufacture really looked like. Prior to this they had been living in a bubble.

The USA were the innovators of mass production - Ford for example. They literally out produced Japan & Germany to win the war.

Both Japan & Germay were given money by the victors - which included the UK - to rebuild their industries.

They looked at what the UK & USA were all doing and did it better. Whilst the UK & USA relaxed. The UK in particular went back to the import mentality which suited the Upper classes with their commonwealth cheap labour estates & businesses.

It still benefits the upper classes in the UK to destroy UK industry to get cheap building land and making a cut on imports.

ollie989898 · Mar 28, 2021

wanton dwarf said:
The USA were the innovators of mass production - Ford for example. They literally out produced Japan & Germany to win the war.

Both Japan & Germay were given money by the victors - which included the UK - to rebuild their industries.

They looked at what the UK & USA were all doing and did it better. Whilst the UK & USA relaxed. The UK in particular went back to the import mentality which suited the Upper classes with their commonwealth cheap labour estates & businesses.

It still benefits the upper classes in the UK to destroy UK industry to get cheap building land and making a cut on imports.

You seem intent on making this a class thing. That is fair enough but I would contend that these days class is more about aspirations and life outlook than wealth.

The UK historically made it's money from moving goods from abroad and then finishing them at home. Today you don't need to finish them at home to make the money, you just need to find someone to sell them to.

wanton dwarf · Mar 28, 2021

ollie989898 said:
You seem intent on making this a class thing. That is fair enough but I would contend that these days class is more about aspirations and life outlook than wealth.

The UK historically made it's money from moving goods from abroad and then finishing them at home. Today you don't need to finish them at home to make the money, you just need to find someone to sell them to.

Prior to the 1900s the country WAS run by the upper classes.

If we have learnt nothing else, those who want to run the country go to certain private schools. In my era I think the country is going more and more in this direction.

I bet the Civil Service, Canary Wharf, Westminster, the Lords, Barristers etc are dominated by the Upper classes.

Easy money is the platform to make money - banks, shares, import/export/sales platforms/intellectual rights. It's interesting to make stuff etc and it provides good jobs for the masses. But the best way to make money is to create a dating phone app and IPO it etc.

Ashtree · Mar 28, 2021

Exactly. The real power and influence in the British government establishment, civil service, judiciary, etc, is centred on the upper classes. Even the military high ranks are drawn from the same set.
These guys merely look at the working classes as mutts to deliver their further enrichment and security at the top of the pyramid.
The callous ditching of the Ulster unionists overboard in their headlong rush for Brexit is just another example of their casual use and abuse of the lesser mortals.

stewart · Mar 28, 2021

Brisel said:
The British car manufacturers couldn’t change in the face of the competition from Japan. Outdated management, poor quality control (Lucas electrics!) and a workforce heavily unionised that would not change either all contributed to overpriced and bad cars.

The outdated management led to the need for a heavily unionised workforce, change has to start at the top. Toyota, Nissan etc build good quality reliable cars in the UK, same workforce different management,

stewart · Mar 28, 2021

wanton dwarf said:
A sheep in the UK doesn't have to be sent 11,964 miles from NZ to the UK. The pretense this is "Environmentally friendly" is false.

@stewart went from the UK to NZ. He thinks importing Sheep to the UK is good because someone in NZ says so (unsurprisingly).

I would rather goods were slightly more expensive in the UK, the resultant production methods generate some jobs, pay taxes-more tax revenue and everyone in the UK have a livelihood. Whilst at the same time not sending goods 11,964 miles across the ocean polluting the seas and the air on it's way.

Somebody has to pay taxes for the "Environmentalists" to get paid for sitting around doing very little.

It was not just someone in NZ saying that lamb, dairy products and even apples produced in NZ has a lower environmental impact than lamb etc produced in the UK, it was an in-depth paper researching all aspects of the supply chain, I would give this more credence than a farmer only looking at one particular part of that supply chain.
If you want to keep the populace fed then the UK has to import food, there is no getting away from that inconvenient truth, the UK does not have the ability to feed itself.

stewart · Mar 28, 2021

wanton dwarf said:
The USA were the innovators of mass production - Ford for example. They literally out produced Japan & Germany to win the war.

Both Japan & Germay were given money by the victors - which included the UK - to rebuild their industries.

They looked at what the UK & USA were all doing and did it better. Whilst the UK & USA relaxed. The UK in particular went back to the import mentality which suited the Upper classes with their commonwealth cheap labour estates & businesses.

It still benefits the upper classes in the UK to destroy UK industry to get cheap building land and making a cut on imports.

Did the UK give money to the victors? My understanding of the situation is that the USA gave grants and loans to Europe (including the UK) via the Marshall Plan, the Europeans used this to re build their economies, the UK spent it on military bases around the world in an attempt to maintain its Empire.

Exfarmer · Mar 28, 2021

stewart said:
It was not just someone in NZ saying that lamb, dairy products and even apples produced in NZ has a lower environmental impact than lamb etc produced in the UK, it was an in-depth paper researching all aspects of the supply chain, I would give this more credence than a farmer only looking at one particular part of that supply chain.
If you want to keep the populace fed then the UK has to import food, there is no getting away from that inconvenient truth, the UK does not have the ability to feed itself.

I dont doubt the authenticity of this work, but I think many of us have become very sceptical of many claims of carbon footprint etc.
Many studies are done specifically to look at the very best of one product to the very worst of another. Comparing NZ lamb reared on farms with no supplementary feeding compared to European lamb pushed for a certain market ignores the fact that many lambs here or their mothers get any supplementary feed, which brings them on a par to the NZ with no transport or fridge energy usage.
There are specialist companies across the world whose sole business is greenwashing product for mainly European but also right thinking consumers across the world

Brisel · Mar 28, 2021

stewart said:
Did the UK give money to the victors? My understanding of the situation is that the USA gave grants and loans to Europe (including the UK) via the Marshall Plan, the Europeans used this to re build their economies, the UK spent it on military bases around the world in an attempt to maintain its Empire.

Britain finished paying for the Marshall Plan and WW2 in the late 1990s.

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