Panorama

Werzle · Feb 15, 2022

Hampton said:
I borrowed a hip hoist once. Never again. Evil contraption.
The vets have a harness that I’ve borrowed that is much better.
Being a suckler herd, having a cow down is rare (perhaps one in last 5 years).
We tend to find that it’s old suckler cows that go down so keep a younger herd

Each to there own but i think the hip hoist is a marvelous invention . Many a cow has been saved on a one man band farm using it, when they would have been shot trying to organise help to lift one with those sheet lifters with leg holes or inflatable type things. Cows get sore hips being lifted daily to save them but patients in hospital get bed sores too so

Northern territory · Feb 15, 2022

7610 super q said:
This. As soon as I heard " Large dairy farm ", and guessed foreign staff. I thought.........say no more.

Speckle said:
The problem is, that however 'well' you treat the animals whilst they are in your care, they are still slaughtered once their useful life is up, or for meat.
I think most people understand that this is ingrained in our culture and that farmers are responding to market forces, but there is also a growing realisation, with all the new data we have on animal sentience, that a cow for instance, is no different to a dog or a cat, in terms of being able to feel pain, make social connections etc. Our understanding of our relationship to animals is changing.
Yes this panorama video will cause some to become vegan from the perspective of animal cruelty. But there is a changing mindset that means that more are going plant based, even if there are 'higher welfare' options. I'm afraid the industry will continue to decline and you really need to get out there and diversify (which I know is easier said than done, and I'm sorry that that is the case).
I am speaking as a non farmer and a vegan, but with some compassion for the situation you find yourselves in and a real interest in how we manage the land and the environment (and what solutions there may be). I specifically looked for this forum because I wanted to see what farmers were saying about the program, for balance (I can't quite bear to watch it myself yet. I'm quite good at sectioning things out but I think that's going to hit hard).

I don't think anyone is going to think that these practises happen in every farm, but the fact that they happen at all will, for sure, make people stop and think.

so let’s let the industry decline and go plant based. Let’s plunder the already fragile soil where your plant based food comes from. Soya, palm oil an almonds. Fine examples of environmentally sound foods. Never mind the health implications that come with these types of diet.

toquark · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
It's not the race that's the issue.

I know, that's what I said.

Speckle said:
It's that you are offering such a low wage that you only get those from those countries that are desperate for the job. So you aren't getting the best that those countries have to offer.

The wages largely reflect the margin in the job. Many of these big dairies look the part with massive sheds and acres of concrete but they often operate on wafer thin margins and with an eye watering debt burden.

Speckle said:
As I said earlier, I had people learning EFL from countries like Latvia etc who were incredibly hard working and intelligent and who worked in farming. One of them straight up could have been a Farmer himself, with the right set of circumstances.

I've met and worked with many many Eastern Europeans who are excellent at what they do. I don't care where people come from as long as they do the job well, but its quite wrong to say that a person's background has no bearing on their attitude to stock rearing.

lloyd · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
I've tried different plant milks and am perfectly happy with unsweetened soy, though good coffee is better black anyway.
The plant based cheese industry obviously is still in development though. I think we should be exploring Lupin based alternatives in this country, as they are in Germany.
Either way, I personally don't think it's morally defensible to kill a sentient animal just for taste. Though I recognise that not everyone makes that connection.

You say your perfectly happy with sweetened soya.
Where does your soya come from?

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

toquark said:
I know, that's what I said.

The wages largely reflect the margin in the job. Many of these big dairies look the part with massive sheds and acres of concrete but they often operate on wafer thin margins and with an eye watering debt burden.

I've met and worked with many many Eastern Europeans who are excellent at what they do. I don't care where people come from as long as they do the job well, but its quite wrong to say that a person's background has no bearing on their attitude to stock rearing.

I understand that the wages reflect on the margin in the job. And I completely sympathise with Farmers on that issue.

I never said that a person's background has no bearing on their attitude to stock rearing but I don't see how that would relate to foreign workers specifically. Are we saying that foreigners are brought up to be less compassionate and with a lower moral standard, because that seems to be the implication.

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

lloyd said:
You say your perfectly happy with sweetened soya.
Where does your soya come from?

Don't start with that strawman argument. We all know that most deforestation is for soya for cattle feed and for land for cattle use, with smaller amounts for soy for biofuels, oils etc.
The impact on the environment, water and land use is substantially less for soy than for dairy.

Hesstondriver · Feb 15, 2022

well my complaint has already winged its way to BBC towers, not for the indefensible content but the BBCs continued anti farming bias

i hope a few others will follow

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

Northern territory said:
so let’s let the industry decline and go plant based. Let’s plunder the already fragile soil where your plant based food comes from. Soya, palm oil an almonds. Fine examples of environmentally sound foods. Never mind the health implications that come with these types of diet.

Please provide some evidence for that claim. Evidence not from a dairy or meat funded source.

1) soya has a far lower impact on the environment that meat and dairy. Most soy is produced for cattle feed and deforestation is linked to that. We all know that it takes far more to feed an animal and then eat that animal than it would do to eat the crop directly.
2) Palm oil is not a vegan issue mate. Don't even try that strawman argument with me.
3) Almonds - not all vegans use almonds or use them any more than non vegans, there are plenty of other alternatives out there. Almonds are actually better for the environment than Dairy anyway.
All of the plant based options are.

Flat figures: https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks

Though I recognise that there 'may' be some specific environments that do not allow other types of agriculture or where it is difficult to transition. Farmers are resourceful though, always have been and eventually solutions will be found.

Mark Hatton · Feb 15, 2022

I'm pretty sure the large majority of the farming community will have watched on with horror at what was shown last night, every comment I've seen rightly condemn the actions of those involved and action should be taken against them.
I do think there needs to be some perspective, Panorama is an investigative programme, it works on shock tactics. It roots out the instances of bad behaviour to make its content. It was one farm, where bad practice is clearly going on, it is not what happens on the majority of livestock farms in the UK, fact!
Irrespective of what certain sectors of society may wish to happen, the dairy and meat industry will continue, the vast majority of the population will continue to eat meat and dairy.
I personally have no issue with anyone that chooses to not eat meat, for whatever their beliefs or dietary requirements. I choose to eat meat and dairy products as part of a balanced diet, I'm comfortable in how food gets from farm to my table. I certainly didn't agree with what I saw on Panorama last night, it doesn't change my view on my food choices. The rhetoric needs to be scaled back from both sides and better dialogue need to take place. People, be nicer to one another, try to understand one another view points, but deal with it and move on, life is too short.

lloyd · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
Don't start with that strawman argument. We all know that most deforestation is for soya for cattle feed and for land for cattle use, with smaller amounts for soy for biofuels, oils etc.
The impact on the environment, water and land use is substantially less for soy than for dairy.

So your quite happy with having soya milk on your
breakfast cereals and the poor animals of the Brazilian
rainforests can go and live elsewhere can they ?
I dont feed any soya to my beef cattle and most UK sourced
for ruminants would be a by product or husks from other uses
including your own dietary requirements.

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

NB in terms of my own use of nuts, I tend to default to walnut and hazelnut, which I believe to be more sustainable. I have reduced my overall consumption of milk but use soy as it has a decent amount of protein and is a good all round substitute. I know that some prefer hemp or oat as more sustainable options.

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

lloyd said:
So your quite happy with having soya milk on your
breakfast cereals and the poor animals of the Brazilian
rainforests can go and live elsewhere can they ?
I dont feed any soya to my beef cattle and most UK sourced
for ruminants would be a by product or husks from other uses
including your own dietary requirements.

As you are fully aware the soya that is causing deforestation is used in animal feed

Soya linked to fires and deforestation in Brazil feeds chicken sold on the British high street

Tesco, Nando's, and McDonald's among leading brands selling chicken fed on soya linked to vast deforestation and fires in Brazil

unearthed.greenpeace.org

toquark · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
I understand that the wages reflect on the margin in the job. And I completely sympathise with Farmers on that issue.

I never said that a person's background has no bearing on their attitude to stock rearing but I don't see how that would relate to foreign workers specifically. Are we saying that foreigners are brought up to be less compassionate and with a lower moral standard, because that seems to be the implication.

If you've grown up worrying about where the next meal comes from, which immediately post communism was the case is much of Eastern Europe, and is still the case in much of the Middle East and Africa, animal welfare is pretty low down the list of priorities. In many cases these people have had an extremely hard upbringing, which we in the cushy West wouldn't have the first idea about. Human life is often cheap in the these places, nevermind animal life.

Its not fair for us to expect our standards to magically manifest themselves as soon as people set foot on British soil. It is incumbent on us to train them accordingly, but to answer your question, in my experience - generally - there is a disparity between UK workers and oversees workers values when it comes to animal welfare.

Castle Farm · Feb 15, 2022

You cut your suit according to your cloth. If you have to employ f**ked in the head farm workers you need to down size. This farmer needs putting out of business and it needs to be in full view of the public and done by farmers.
I had a neighbour next to me a few years back. You would not believe the state of his animals. I used to dread going out in the morning and seeing his sheep and cattle standing around starving to death. He was taken to court 3 times for neglect and not removing carcasses (Trading Standards), but was never banned, just fined a few hundred quid and given community service.
Karma stepped up and he died after a small operation. I had one chap say 'poor old Nigel' I replied. The stroker died in bed, not out in a field with the crows pecking his eyes out.
It's up to farmers to police our industry, no bugger else will effectively.

Derrick Hughes · Feb 15, 2022

lloyd said:
You say your perfectly happy with sweetened soya.
Where does your soya come from?

Anyone who drinks oat milk don't care much about their own health

Mark Hatton · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
As you are fully aware the soya that is causing deforestation is used in animal feed

Soya linked to fires and deforestation in Brazil feeds chicken sold on the British high street

Tesco, Nando's, and McDonald's among leading brands selling chicken fed on soya linked to vast deforestation and fires in Brazil

unearthed.greenpeace.org

Are you suggesting that UK farmers agree with the deforestation of the rainforests?

lloyd · Feb 15, 2022

Speckle said:
As you are fully aware the soya that is causing deforestation is used in animal feed

Soya linked to fires and deforestation in Brazil feeds chicken sold on the British high street

Tesco, Nando's, and McDonald's among leading brands selling chicken fed on soya linked to vast deforestation and fires in Brazil

unearthed.greenpeace.org

Yeah that's why we need to do away with soya and use home grown
proteins and also ban foods and non essential products from entering
the UK that are part of the problem.Your preaching to the converted on
the subject of soya .

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

Is Soya Sustainable? | Ethical Consumer

Mass production of soya is linked to large scale deforestation in South America. In this article, we look at which consumer products are tied to it, and what we can do to create change.

www.ethicalconsumer.org

lloyd said:
So your quite happy with having soya milk on your
breakfast cereals and the poor animals of the Brazilian
rainforests can go and live elsewhere can they ?
I dont feed any soya to my beef cattle and most UK sourced
for ruminants would be a by product or husks from other uses
including your own dietary requirements.

Only 6% of soy for human consumption, and a good proportion of that for soybean oil etc, which is not a vegan issue.

And though it's non of your business, my own personal habits are that I have reduced overall 'milk' consumption. I have my coffee black. I have soy milk with tea and a splash in my porridge (half and half with water, to again reduce consumption). I have more lentils, grains and pulses and only occasionally have meat subs. I'm fully aware of the impact of consumer behaviours and absolutely follow my conscience and do the best I can in my circumstances. I trust that you are doing the same?

Don't mistake me for someone who is uneducated and hasn't done some honest research.
I have full sympathy with the farming community. I know there is a lot of hard work, tradition and culture there and by no means do I see farmers as the enemy. But I won't have people misrepresenting things in order to justify themselves.

Speckle · Feb 15, 2022

Mark Hatton said:
Are you suggesting that UK farmers agree with the deforestation of the rainforests?

No, where have I done that?
Are you putting words in my mouth, out of spite?

Hilly · Feb 15, 2022

Hampton said:
I borrowed a hip hoist once. Never again. Evil contraption.
The vets have a harness that I’ve borrowed that is much better.
Being a suckler herd, having a cow down is rare (perhaps one in last 5 years).
We tend to find that it’s old suckler cows that go down so keep a younger herd

I tried one of them once they are the work of the devil .

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