Panorama

[lloyd]

Is Soya Sustainable? | Ethical Consumer

Mass production of soya is linked to large scale deforestation in South America. In this article, we look at which consumer products are tied to it, and what we can do to create change.

www.ethicalconsumer.org

Only 6% of soy for human consumption, and a good proportion of that for soybean oil etc, which is not a vegan issue.

And though it's non of your business, my own personal habits are that I have reduced overall 'milk' consumption. I have my coffee black. I have soy milk with tea and a splash in my porridge (half and half with water, to again reduce consumption). I have more lentils, grains and pulses and only occasionally have meat subs. I'm fully aware of the impact of consumer behaviours and absolutely follow my conscience and do the best I can in my circumstances. I trust that you are doing the same?

Don't mistake me for someone who is uneducated and hasn't done some honest research.
I have full sympathy with the farming community. I know there is a lot of hard work, tradition and culture there and by no means do I see farmers as the enemy. But I won't have people misrepresenting things in order to justify themselves.

Soya is not just used for human consumption it is
also used in bio diesel production .
Do you bike to work ?

 

[Hfd Cattle]

I tried one of them once they are the work of the devil .

....yes but they are meant for cattle not humans ....try some crutches next time

 

[Speckle]

Yeah that's why we need to do away with soya and use home grown
proteins and also ban foods and non essential products from entering
the UK that are part of the problem.Your preaching to the converted on
the subject of soya .

I'm not preaching to anyone. I'm defending myself against a personal attack from another forum member. Who is claiming that I am personally causing deforestation by using soy milk.

When they are fully aware that that is not the case. Unfortunately 'home grown protein' where it pertains to milk and meat have a high environmental cost.
Though I'm fully up for exploring less damaging options. Luckily more are becoming accessible.

 

[Mark Hatton]

Posting a reference to deforestation to grow soya, which if fed to uk livestock, then ends on uk consumers plates, infers that UK farmers are complicit in destruction of the Amazon. If not why did you post it? I think you'll find the audience on this forum has a pretty good grasp of where soya is produced. Thats your perception if you feel I'm pouting words in your mouth.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I thought that the NFU representation was weak and out of her depth. To simply say that another 1 pence per litre would help farmers invest in technology to look after their cows better showed that she didn't see the problem.
The problem was clearly the work place culture that was embedded in the staff, not 1ppl.
Ironically, very much in the news this week if you are an officer in the Met.
The problem is at the top of that business, not the profession.

The culture of a company is set by the owner/managing director, however, a new MD, that does not conform to the culture of the company will be "bullied" to change to the company culture or forced out by the employees (changing culture is a very difficult thing, knee jerk "get rid of the one at the top" often does nothing except make everyone feel pious) . I have not watched the programme, but I will comment, when I moved to West Wales there were people milking 2 or 3 cows, the market place has forced all those out of business and encouraged bigger and bigger farms, so I will add that the general public who continue to buy £3 chickens would be pretty hypercritical to then take umbrage when indirectly their buying habits have contributed to animals becoming commoditised in industrial agriculture.

 

[Hilly]

....yes but they are meant for cattle not humans ....try some crutches next time

Or try keeping youger cows and easy calving bulls and you dont get downer cows , them
Hip thkngs are cruel as fuk, other ways of lifting them they are just cheap and easy.

 

[lloyd]

I'm not preaching to anyone. I'm defending myself against a personal attack from another forum member. Who is claiming that I am personally causing deforestation by using soy milk.

When they are fully aware that that is not the case. Unfortunately 'home grown protein' where it pertains to milk and meat have a high environmental cost.
Though I'm fully up for exploring less damaging options. Luckily more are becoming accessible.

No one said you were personally responsible but by your own admission
of using soya milk you are a contributing factor.

 

[Speckle]

Soya is not just used for human consumption it is
also used in bio diesel production .
Do you bike to work ?

Do you?
I did bike to work for over 10 years.
Unfortunately my current job involves visiting people with disabilities out in the community so I have to use a car for that. Though I bought the least damaging car I could afford, with very high MPG (citigo greentech).
Little bit of an ablest attitude don't you think, as you must be aware that not everyone is able to cycle, for health reasons. And absolutely nothing to do with my point about meat and dairy. There are some things that we can avoid doing and some that we have less options on. We all just need to do the best we can in an imperfect world.

I came in here for a genuine discussion about the way forward. Not to be trolled by idiots who make presumptions about my personal lifestyle.

I've made no presumptions about you or about farming. Kindly show me the same courtesy.

 

[john 650]

This isn't a large farm issue, but is a culture/management issue. The staff there worked like that, because that's either how they'd been shown to do it, or how they'd been allowed to do it.

Most publicised animal prosecutions I can remember of late have come from small scale farms- and there have been some notable ones in West Wales in recent years. All of them disgusting, and a real stain on our industry.. By and large, large units recognise that healthy animals are profitable animals, and taking a realistic view, a video of a down cow, being moved by a hoist, whilst ugly, is no uglier, than seeing an injured patient being moved beds. The luxury of euthanasia was allowed to that cow- we far more cruelly don't allow fellow humans it...
The smaller scale examples of prosecution like the ones below, form the same area, are far more damaging, and far crueller examples... They're not down to margins, stock prices, or even greed, but are a far bigger problem than welfare on large units.

Farm animals found rotting in fields in Pembrokeshire

Farmer Richard Scarfe was offered advice on husbandry and record-keeping back in 2019, but he failed to take it on board

www.walesonline.co.uk

Distressing images: Mum, 80, and son given suspended jail sentences for 'horrific' animal cruelty

AN 80-year-old woman and her 55-year old son have both been handed suspended jail sentences after admitting to a string of animal cruelty offences…

www.tivysideadvertiser.co.uk

Man jailed for neglecting animals found in squalid conditions

More than 200 animals were found in "one of the worst examples" of neglect.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Hfd Cattle]

Well the panorama programme is bringing some new members on board .......

 

[Speckle]

No one said you were personally responsible but by your own admission
of using soya milk you are a contributing factor.

Look at the stats. By switching from meat and dairy to soya (and reducing significantly) I've made a huge reduction in my environmental impact. The figures are there in black and white from independent sources over and over again. You know this. Everyone in farming knows this. You are educated people.

If everyone switched then the demand for soya would decrease, not increase. And in reality not everyone would switch to soya, there are other alternatives available.

 

[Speckle]

Posting a reference to deforestation to grow soya, which if fed to uk livestock, then ends on uk consumers plates, infers that UK farmers are complicit in destruction of the Amazon. If not why did you post it? I think you'll find the audience on this forum has a pretty good grasp of where soya is produced. Thats your perception if you feel I'm pouting words in your mouth.

Not at all.

It was a direct answer to someone accusing me of contributing to deforestation by drinking a small amount of soya milk, instead of the far more environmentally damaging option of drinking cows milk.

I wasn't the one who raised deforestation. I was being intentionally trolled and presumed to be less educated on the issues than I am.

 

[lloyd]

Look at the stats. By switching from meat and dairy to soya (and reducing significantly) I've made a huge reduction in my environmental impact. The figures are there in black and white from independent sources over and over again. You know this. Everyone in farming knows this. You are educated people.

If everyone switched then the demand for soya would decrease, not increase. And in reality not everyone would switch to soya, there are other alternatives available.

My sheep and cattle have been fed zero soya for several years now.
Please do not insult me or a growing proportion of beef and sheep
farmers who have an extremely low effect on the Amazon's health status.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

If a cows is down , then large grain bucket with some straw in and slide the cow in , no need to use a clamp to transport a downer cow , once on deep straw they very often get up themselves

 

[wanton dwarf]

Do you?
I did bike to work for over 10 years.
Unfortunately my current job involves visiting people with disabilities out in the community so I have to use a car for that. Though I bought the least damaging car I could afford, with very high MPG (citigo greentech).
Little bit of an ablest attitude don't you think, as you must be aware that not everyone is able to cycle, for health reasons. And absolutely nothing to do with my point about meat and dairy. There are some things that we can avoid doing and some that we have less options on. We all just need to do the best we can in an imperfect world.

I came in here for a genuine discussion about the way forward. Not to be trolled by idiots who make presumptions about my personal lifestyle.

I've made no presumptions about you or about farming. Kindly show me the same courtesy.

I wouldn't keep pushing cycling as though it's some kind of messiah.

Cycling is unhealthy - makes women incontinent and causes men to go impotent. Cycling and public transport is also pretty stupid as regards life expectancy - you cant use a cycle to get to a hospital if you or a family member is sick or injured. Obvious problems in an accident.

Meat and dairy provide food out of waste land. Land which cannot be used for homes or other food. Cattle also provide habitats for many other species. The reverse is true, in fact massively so for imported Soya.

Time to grow up and stop pushing the propaganda of HMG & the civil service - who get rich by getting back handers and directorships from the very corporations destroying the environment.

 

[Hilly]

Well the panorama programme is bringing some new members on board .......

That work for rhe brittish bull sh!t corporation .

 

[Farfrae]

as upsetting as the filming was I don’t think it’s appropriate to share the name of the farm. He will have enough sh!t on his doorstep now without some wannabie activists adding to the issue.

The farm details are in the public domain anyway

Extreme Violence and Neglect on Dairy Farm | Animal Equality UK

Investigation uncovers cruelty to cows on a Welsh dairy farm linked to suppliers of Costa, Londis and British Airways.

animalequality.org.uk

 

[Speckle]

My sheep and cattle have been fed zero soya for several years now.
Please do not insult me or a growing proportion of beef and sheep
farmers who have an extremely low effect on the Amazone's health status.

You are fully aware that I have not accused UK farmers of being responsible for deforestation (in the Amazon anyway)

 

[Mark Hatton]

Look at the stats. By switching from meat and dairy to soya (and reducing significantly) I've made a huge reduction in my environmental impact. The figures are there in black and white from independent sources over and over again. You know this. Everyone in farming knows this. You are educated people.

If everyone switched then the demand for soya would decrease, not increase. And in reality not everyone would switch to soya, there are other alternatives available.

You posted a link to an article that alleged soya, grown in land that had been deforested, is being fed to UK livestock, but you are happy to drink "milk" form same said soya? I'm confused.

 

[DaveGrohl]

Please provide some evidence for that claim. Evidence not from a dairy or meat funded source.


1) soya has a far lower impact on the environment that meat and dairy. Most soy is produced for cattle feed and deforestation is linked to that. We all know that it takes far more to feed an animal and then eat that animal than it would do to eat the crop directly.
2) Palm oil is not a vegan issue mate. Don't even try that strawman argument with me.
3) Almonds - not all vegans use almonds or use them any more than non vegans, there are plenty of other alternatives out there. Almonds are actually better for the environment than Dairy anyway.
All of the plant based options are.

Flat figures: https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks

Though I recognise that there 'may' be some specific environments that do not allow other types of agriculture or where it is difficult to transition. Farmers are resourceful though, always have been and eventually solutions will be found.

I’ve just strolled in here through boredom.

New member? You’ll find quite a few on this forum have done a lot more research than simply looking on the utterly woeful Ourworldindata website. Research from scientists who actually understand where these terrible/childish figures come from. If that website is your starting point then you’ve got a long journey ahead if you’re trying to understand the actual facts and not the propaganda. You might want to start with "most soy is produced for cattle feed". The reality is that less than 3% of the entire World’s production of soy goes to cattle.