Panorama

wanton dwarf said:

I wouldn't keep pushing cycling as though it's some kind of messiah.

Cycling is unhealthy - makes women incontinent and causes men to go impotent. Cycling and public transport is also pretty stupid as regards life expectancy - you cant use a cycle to get to a hospital if you or a family member is sick or injured. Obvious problems in an accident.

Meat and dairy provide food out of waste land. Land which cannot be used for homes or other food. Cattle also provide habitats for many other species. The reverse is true, in fact massively so for imported Soya.

Time to grow up and stop pushing the propaganda of HMG & the civil service - who get rich by getting back handers and directorships from the very corporations destroying the environment.

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DaveGrohl said:

I’ve just strolled in here through boredom.

New member? You’ll find quite a few on this forum have done a lot more research than simply looking on the utterly woeful Ourworldindata website. Research from scientists who actually understand where these terrible/childish figures come from. If that website is your starting point then you’ve got a long journey ahead if you’re trying to understand the actual facts and not the propaganda. You might want to start with "most soy is produced for cattle feed". The reality is that less than 3% of the entire World’s production of soy goes to cattle.

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Speckle said:

The problem is, that however 'well' you treat the animals whilst they are in your care, they are still slaughtered once their useful life is up, or for meat.
I think most people understand that this is ingrained in our culture and that farmers are responding to market forces, but there is also a growing realisation, with all the new data we have on animal sentience, that a cow for instance, is no different to a dog or a cat, in terms of being able to feel pain, make social connections etc. Our understanding of our relationship to animals is changing.
Yes this panorama video will cause some to become vegan from the perspective of animal cruelty. But there is a changing mindset that means that more are going plant based, even if there are 'higher welfare' options. I'm afraid the industry will continue to decline and you really need to get out there and diversify (which I know is easier said than done, and I'm sorry that that is the case).
I am speaking as a non farmer and a vegan, but with some compassion for the situation you find yourselves in and a real interest in how we manage the land and the environment (and what solutions there may be). I specifically looked for this forum because I wanted to see what farmers were saying about the program, for balance (I can't quite bear to watch it myself yet. I'm quite good at sectioning things out but I think that's going to hit hard).

I don't think anyone is going to think that these practises happen in every farm, but the fact that they happen at all will, for sure, make people stop and think.

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Northern territory said:

so let’s let the industry decline and go plant based. Let’s plunder the already fragile soil where your plant based food comes from. Soya, palm oil an almonds. Fine examples of environmentally sound foods. Never mind the health implications that come with these types of diet.

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Speckle said:

3) Evidence that cycling is unhealthy please? (spoiler alert there is no evidence because you are talking rubbish)

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DR PHILIPPA KAYE asks: Are you spinning yourself into incontinence?

You can imagine my patient's disappointment when I told her that no, it wasn't normal, and her new-found obsession with her Peloton may be contributing to her incontinence.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Speckle said:

Those with integrity are staying quiet and thinking on it and the future and all power to them. They will be the ones that diversify and survive and who do it with a clear conscience.

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Speckle said:

Try actually reading before you comment. (though I suspect that you came at me with the intention to troll, so approaching things from a fair perspective was never on the cards)

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Hilly said:

Or try keeping youger cows and easy calving bulls and you dont get downer cows , them
Hip thkngs are cruel as fuk, other ways of lifting them they are just cheap and easy.

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Ffermer Bach said:

The biggest issue with everyone becoming vegan, is that it is not sustainable from a soils viewpoint, soil needs animals integrated into the production cycle to maintain organic matter (hence the "golden hoof") and as 60% of the land in the UK is only suitable for growing grass, and we are only produce 60% of the food we eat, is it sensible to make us even less self sufficient?

The Vegan argument, that eating sentient animals is just wrong, is a hard one to counter, all my arguments about soil organic matter, vitamin B12, ecosystem services of grassland, sequestration of carbon, carbon footprint of Nitrogen production, bone density of Vegan diets etc are all logical arguments, where as a Vegan is arguing about feelings. All I can say to counter their arguments, are unfortunately life and nature is not cuddly or a Disney film, you just have to accept nature is harsh as well as being amazing and beautiful.

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Speckle said:

Don't start with that strawman argument. We all know that most deforestation is for soya for cattle feed and for land for cattle use, with smaller amounts for soy for biofuels, oils etc.
The impact on the environment, water and land use is substantially less for soy than for dairy.

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Are dairy cows and livestock behind the growth of soya in South America? | Sustainable Food Trust

Soya fed to dairy cows contributes to the destruction of rainforests, however grass-fed dairy offers a more sustainable alternative

sustainablefoodtrust.org

wanton dwarf said:

Drop the insults.

Stop playing the victim.

If you don't understand the world around you and then use arguments which are founded in propaganda and hyperbole - what do you expect ?

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lloyd said:

Can we atleast agree that my grass fed beef and sheep have less impact
on the rain forests than supermarket food containing soya?

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Speckle said:

Please do provide your evidence that the figures quoted in ourworldindata are incorrect?

There are multiple other independent sources that corroborate that data.

NB: I will be looking to see who has funded your alternative research

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Speckle said:

So you don't like the fact that I have actually done some research and that you haven't been able to provide anything to effectively dispute it. I'm not interested in your attempts to make this personal. There are people in here who actually care about farming and its future and are prepared to discuss things properly and without prejudice. I'm not interested in you targeting me because I don't eat the specific 'products' that you produce or support.

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Speckle said:

I didn't come in here to talk about veganism or to push it. I came in to see what famers were saying about the program and to get an understanding of what is common practise and what isn't. I don't hold truck with people misrepresenting the farming community and am forever debating with other vegans on some of the things that are said that aren't fair or balanced. We don't need to use propaganda, the moral issues stand on their own.

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Ffermer Bach said:

Are dairy cows and livestock behind the growth of soya in South America? | Sustainable Food Trust

Soya fed to dairy cows contributes to the destruction of rainforests, however grass-fed dairy offers a more sustainable alternative

sustainablefoodtrust.org

in case you aren't interested in reading the whole article I have copied one paragraph

But whatever you make of that argument, my main point isn’t that it’s fine to be feeding lots of soya to livestock, it is that by pretending that livestock production is the main driver of soya production, we are failing to face up to the far bigger issues of population growth and economic growth, which are the root causes of the soya problem.

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wanton dwarf said:

I tell you what.

I've not watched it.

Because my grandfather milked cows and raised beef herds. I know what he was and what he did.

I also know what the BBC is. The fact YOU don't understand the facts says EVERYTHING.

IF you want to know about farming go talk a farmer in your neighbourhood. If you don't live in such an area then ask youself WHY you are spending so much time and effort on a subject in which you are unable to know the facts AND rely on idiots like the BBC - who are reknowned worldwide for having a sick twisted agenda on a multitude of subjects.

BTW I've got better things to do than speak to a fool.

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Speckle said:

Look at the stats. By switching from meat and dairy to soya (and reducing significantly) I've made a huge reduction in my environmental impact. The figures are there in black and white from independent sources over and over again. You know this. Everyone in farming knows this. You are educated people.

If everyone switched then the demand for soya would decrease, not increase. And in reality not everyone would switch to soya, there are other alternatives available.

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Local alternatives to soya and palm meal will help save rainforests | Sustainable Food Trust

UK livestock farmers could use more local alternatives to soya meal and palm kernel meal without reducing productivity.

sustainablefoodtrust.org

Jrp221 said:

Anyone who claims they 'only eat 1 advocado or a little bit of Soya Milk' is still contributing to the altering of habitats. There has also been a massive increase in the destruction of virgin forest for the growing of sugar cane for Biofuel so its not just food production.

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