Are Hereford x Cattle unpopular

Bald n Grumpy · Apr 19, 2022

M-J-G said:
You are probably right, look at the hereford UK photograph champion, an impressive looking big bull, but never seen a day of tough conditions in his life.

Unfortunately these folks are present in most breeds these days .

Can't just blame the breeders of overfed pampered stock the buyers need to take some responsibility.
There's a bull for sale on here looks a tidy well reared thing ready to go to work and last for years but the comments given because he's not fat and pampered are just laughable

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

Gulli said:
Because I like them and I'm trying to breed the good ones...

There's no incentive to breed horns back into polled cattle, I honestly don't understand why anyone would want horns other than aesthetic purposes and that's no different to the big shampooed show bulls.
The society should be doing more for lots of things in the breed but that's just how societies work admitting introgression into a closed herd book is very unlikely, but drawing a line between modern Herefords and older Herefords is very difficult to do regardless. How far back down the pedigree line should you go before you make the decision? And if breeders are crossing in other breeds and not declaring it then you can't trust the pedigrees

Good that you are trying to breed good ones.
But you are still missing the point - we don’t “want horns”. We want the cattle and it just so happens that they come with horns. Because it’s a recessive gene, using a Traditional bull on a homozygous polled cow would mean no calves with horns anyway. If you want another generation after that, just keep the polled ones and genetic test them - job done. I can’t understand the obsession with lack of horns - a cow is more than its horns, and most people who have had Herefords for any length of time tell me that the horned ones are better cattle. You are right though about the Society.

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

Bald n Grumpy said:
Can't just blame the breeders of overfed pampered stock the buyers need to take some responsibility.
There's a bull for sale on here looks a tidy well reared thing ready to go to work and last for years but the comments given because he's not fat and pampered are just laughable

Absolutely. People on here have often said they don’t want pampered animals - and yet what do they do? If it were up to me I’d get rid of shows and sales but they are fun for some people I suppose.

Hampton · Apr 19, 2022

Farmer Roy said:
Herefords are probably one of the most popular breeds here, along with Angus, either grass fed or in feed lots

Ralgro works wonders over there though! Banned here

Gulli · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
Good that you are trying to breed good ones.
But you are still missing the point - we don’t “want horns”. We want the cattle and it just so happens that they come with horns. Because it’s a recessive gene, using a Traditional bull on a homozygous polled cow would mean no calves with horns anyway. If you want another generation after that, just keep the polled ones and genetic test them - job done. I can’t understand the obsession with lack of horns - a cow is more than its horns, and most people who have had Herefords for any length of time tell me that the horned ones are better cattle. You are right though about the Society.

Lack of horns = better from a welfare point of view. For the cattle and for the farmer

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

Gulli said:
Lack of horns = better from a welfare point of view. For the cattle and for the farmer

I’m not arguing with that but the Hereford is a horned breed. Anything else is not a Hereford- DNA doesn’t lie. You’re still missing the point.

Farmer Roy · Apr 19, 2022

Hampton said:
Ralgro works wonders over there though! Banned here

only used here for cattle destined for the US market, where it is allowed

we sell to a lot of other places apart from the US . . .

M-J-G · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
I’m not arguing with that but the Hereford is a horned breed. Anything else is not a Hereford- DNA doesn’t lie. You’re still missing the point.

What is this Hereford that you speak of though?
How do you know that they weren't crossed with other breeds 100 years ago, that could mean that nothing around today is an absolute 100% Hereford.
Hypothetical I know, but as I've said before, how far do we go back?

Gulli · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
I’m not arguing with that but the Hereford is a horned breed. Anything else is not a Hereford- DNA doesn’t lie. You’re still missing the point.

No I'm not, just pointing out why there's an obsession with having no horns.
If it's not a Hereford then what is it? OP Herefords are only a stabilised xbred same as most other breeds

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

@M-J-G @Gulli you don’t understand- the problem is not that the OP is “purer” than the modern (although it probably is) - it’s that it is different, and it’s a problem if a breed has more than one genetic profile. This is probably the case in other breeds that have an OP population but work on the Hereford is the first to be published. These graphs may help explain what I mean - they are 3D which is why there are different views. Yellow, orange and brown are OP populations in UK, Australia and North America. Dark blue dots and triangles are modern North American animals, both in US, UK and Australia. Incidentally there are polled and horned animals in the blue group. If you look carefully you will also see on the graph black and red Angus and UK and American Simmentals. We are not particularly bothered about the yellows and blues, although still different, but what bothers us most is the animals in the red circle, most of which appear multiple times in UK Hereford pedigrees. Anyone like to suggest what they are?

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

M-J-G said:
What is this Hereford that you speak of though?
How do you know that they weren't crossed with other breeds 100 years ago, that could mean that nothing around today is an absolute 100% Hereford.
Hypothetical I know, but as I've said before, how far do we go back?

What they were 100 years ago is not relevant- what matters is where they are now.

unlacedgecko · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
What they were 100 years ago is not relevant- what matters is where they are now.

Why?

Not trolling, genuine question. Why does it matter what label is assigned to a cow? It's still made of beef.

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

unlacedgecko said:
Why?

Not trolling, genuine question. Why does it matter what label is assigned to a cow? It's still made of beef.

Absolutely but these are pedigree animals. If they are only going for beef you might think it wouldn’t matter but actually DNA profiles do matter. In the wake of the horse meat crisis, Traditional Hereford breeders were concerned that their beef could not be labelled as “Hereford“ because the Food Standards Agency was using the American profile to define Hereford beef.

Gulli · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
Absolutely but these are pedigree animals. If they are only going for beef you might think it wouldn’t matter but actually DNA profiles do matter. In the wake of the horse meat crisis, Traditional Hereford breeders were concerned that their beef could not be labelled as “Hereford“ because the Food Standards Agency was using the American profile to define Hereford beef.

Were any breeders not allowed to label their beef as Hereford?

Henarar · Apr 19, 2022

Bald n Grumpy said:
Can't just blame the breeders of overfed pampered stock the buyers need to take some responsibility.
There's a bull for sale on here looks a tidy well reared thing ready to go to work and last for years but the comments given because he's not fat and pampered are just laughable

Don't really matter what a stock bull looks like anyway he is only going to be sold once when he goes for cull in a lot of cases, its what his calves are like that matters there maybe 100's of them to sell. Feed and pampering don't alter DNA

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

Gulli said:
Were any breeders not allowed to label their beef as Hereford?

Fortunately no - because it became the subject of a research project - FAO 112 and 125 if you want to look it up.

M-J-G · Apr 19, 2022

Cowgirl said:
@M-J-G @Gulli you don’t understand- the problem is not that the OP is “purer” than the modern (although it probably is) - it’s that it is different, and it’s a problem if a breed has more than one genetic profile. This is probably the case in other breeds that have an OP population but work on the Hereford is the first to be published. These graphs may help explain what I mean - they are 3D which is why there are different views. Yellow, orange and brown are OP populations in UK, Australia and North America. Dark blue dots and triangles are modern North American animals, both in US, UK and Australia. Incidentally there are polled and horned animals in the blue group. If you look carefully you will also see on the graph black and red Angus and UK and American Simmentals. We are not particularly bothered about the yellows and blues, although still different, but what bothers us most is the animals in the red circle, most of which appear multiple times in UK Hereford pedigrees. Anyone like to suggest what they are?

What do you want exactly?
A separate society or some kind of preservation organisation for old population that doesnt allow any ingression?

M-J-G · Apr 19, 2022

Henarar said:
Don't really matter what a stock bull looks like anyway he is only going to be sold once when he goes for cull in a lot of cases, its what his calves are like that matters there maybe 100's of them to sell. Feed and pampering don't alter DNA

You clearly don't sell many breeding animals if you think it doesn't matter what a bull looks like.
Try selling young breeding bulls or heifers off some old skinny rubbish looking parent stock and see how you get on.

Cowgirl · Apr 19, 2022

M-J-G said:
What do you want exactly?
A separate society or some kind of preservation organisation for old population that doesnt allow any ingression?

Good question- ideally an inclusive breed society which would really value, promote and support the OP instead of treating the Traditional members as poor relations. Failing that a separate society.

Bald n Grumpy · Apr 19, 2022

M-J-G said:
You clearly don't sell many breeding animals if you think it doesn't matter what a bull looks like.
Try selling young breeding bulls or heifers off some old skinny rubbish looking parent stock and see how you get on.

Your right to many extremes either way is bad, but there are buyers out there who don't know what they're doing and then blame breeders because they aren't getting the results they wanted

Are Hereford x Cattle unpopular

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100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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