Are Hereford x Cattle unpopular

[Bald n Grumpy]

You’re confused? So am I! No not really type. It appears to be mainly colour.


No that’s just the point. The OPs are registered with an asterisk but they are really only recognised by the RBST. They used to be on the NBAR register but recently the FaNGR committee lumped them in with the modern Hereford without telling anyone (supposedly to avoid number duplication but there was no evidence of that anyway). Same for the Native Angus. And how do we know it hasn’t been recent? How do we know it’s not still happening?

Are you saying that as long as the colour is right then purity and type aren't as important? Would I be right to say op Hereford's are more gingery brown than the modern reds?

 

[Cowgirl]

Are you saying that as long as the colour is right then purity and type aren't as important? Would I be right to say op Hereford's are more gingery brown than the modern reds?

What I’m saying is that anything red with a bit of white on its face could be called a Hereford - certainly breed social media pages would suggest that type is extremely variable. No - OPs are usually a chestnut red, great variation in other countries though. Often orange colored in US, some Australian ones very dark, almost black.

 

[Jonp]

Couldn't you just use EBVs to establish an animals attributes?

 

[Cowgirl]

Couldn't you just use EBVs to establish an animals attributes?

It would require the development of across breed EBVs - I’m sure it will come eventually but most are breed specific are they not?
Just edited this to say that there are lots of qualities that there are no EBVs for eg longevity, fertility, feet, udder conformation etc.

 

[topground]

But they have imported animals that are classed as pure overseas what else can they do?
Plus what's important is, the customers are buying them.

As far as I'm aware they are obliged to register animals that are registered pure with another breed association.
I'm aware of several cases that went to Court and were ruled in favour of the import, despite what the society rules were.

Look at topground and his sheeted cattle, should they be scrapped because they aren't the original gene pool?
I'd say not

@M-J-G You are absolutely right. There are no intellectual property rights attached to the name Sheeted Somerset, no animal health based reasons and no obstacles on the statute book to prevent Sheeted Somerset cattle breeders calling cattle that look like Sheeted Somersets Sheeted Somersets. FAnGR did their best to strangle the project at birth and failed.
I am yet to receive a summons or a writ so the civil servants and ‘advisors’ who tried to stop us had no basis in law but were pursuing their own personal agendas at the expense of the taxpayer. Wholly unacceptable behaviour and if I could identify these individuals I would name and shame them. Unfortunately they hide behind the veil of civil service secrecy and are unaccountable.

 

[Woolless]

@M-J-G You are absolutely right. There are no intellectual property rights attached to the name Sheeted Somerset, no animal health based reasons and no obstacles on the statute book to prevent Sheeted Somerset cattle breeders calling cattle that look like Sheeted Somersets Sheeted Somersets. FAnGR did their best to strangle the project at birth and failed.
I am yet to receive a summons or a writ so the civil servants and ‘advisors’ who tried to stop us had no basis in law but were pursuing their own personal agendas at the expense of the taxpayer. Wholly unacceptable behaviour and if I could identify these individuals I would name and shame them. Unfortunately they hide behind the veil of civil service secrecy and are unaccountable.

I'm not doubting you but what personal agendas would they be pursuing? I find it very puzzling that this FAnGR committee decided that there was no such thing as OP populations in various breeds without telling anyone and I do wonder where the push for that decision came from.

 

[Cowgirl]

I'm not doubting you but what personal agendas would they be pursuing? I find it very puzzling that this FAnGR committee decided that there was no such thing as OP populations in various breeds without telling anyone and I do wonder where the push for that decision came from.

I don’t know but there are politicians who are also cattle breeders..

 

[Gulli]

You’re confused? So am I! No not really type. It appears to be mainly colour.


No that’s just the point. The OPs are registered with an asterisk but they are really only recognised by the RBST. They used to be on the NBAR register but recently the FaNGR committee lumped them in with the modern Hereford without telling anyone (supposedly to avoid number duplication but there was no evidence of that anyway). Same for the Native Angus. And how do we know it hasn’t been recent? How do we know it’s not still happening?

So what's the solution?

Surely the whole point of breeds is that when you buy an animal you have a reasonable idea of what its attributes are. If breeds disappear it will be a lottery.

Judging by the massive range of breeding values I don't think that's true at all, all you're getting with a Hereford is a white face(mostly) with an Angus you'll get a black calf etc etc.
Why does it matter what's in the breeding history?

 

[Cowgirl]

So what's the solution?

Judging by the massive range of breeding values I don't think that's true at all, all you're getting with a Hereford is a white face(mostly) with an Angus you'll get a black calf etc etc.
Why does it matter what's in the breeding history?

Why does it matter? Well a breed is surely more than a colour? In my opinion what sets the Hereford apart is its toughness, fertility, feed conversion efficiency from grass, marbled beef and good temperament. I’m not saying it’s the only breed that has these attributes but they are easily lost. If you genuinely think that all you get from a Hereford is a white face (mostly), then the breed is failing - which brings us neatly back to the start of this thread..

 

[M-J-G]

I don't know, it was done in the 50s and 60s, I'd assume Angus or a matching of mutations.

Without polled strains the breed would be left behind as there is huge demand for polled cattle these days and most common breeds these days offer polled options, apart from it would seem BB.
Personally, I'm happy enough to give up a few % off being 100% pure in order to avoid having horned cattle.

 

[topground]

I'm not doubting you but what personal agendas would they be pursuing? I find it very puzzling that this FAnGR committee decided that there was no such thing as OP populations in various breeds without telling anyone and I do wonder where the push for that decision came from.

@Woolless
It can only be a personal agenda and a power trip for these anonymous FAnGR members.
Clearly you don’t have to be rational or understand that it is breeders that make decisions about their breed rather than faceless unaccountable bureaucrats.
If I was a breeder involved in OP populations I would first send in a Freedom Of Information request to DEFRA asking for details of the decision making process and what consultation was carried out prior to the actions that have prejudiced the future of OP .
I would then consider judicial review of the process.
The civil service secretariat that service FAnGR is made up of graduates who don’t know one end of a cow from another. The real power lies with the ‘advisors’ I have a copy of an email from which the authors details have been redacted, which says Sheeted Somerset cattle breeders should not be allowed to do what we are doing. No explanation setting out what the legal obstacles are because there are none. However the civil service have acted on this advisors prejudices and they have thrown all manner of ridiculous obstacles in our way, none of which wil stand scrutiny in the High Court when I can afford to mount a challenge.

 

[M-J-G]

Why does it matter? Well a breed is surely more than a colour? In my opinion what sets the Hereford apart is its toughness, fertility, feed conversion efficiency from grass, marbled beef and good temperament. I’m not saying it’s the only breed that has these attributes but they are easily lost. If you genuinely think that all you get from a Hereford is a white face (mostly), then the breed is failing - which brings us neatly back to the start of this thread..

But as you've suggested before, a breed can be altered within its own population through selection, so traits can be gained or lost regardless.

 

[Gulli]

Why does it matter? Well a breed is surely more than a colour? In my opinion what sets the Hereford apart is its toughness, fertility, feed conversion efficiency from grass, marbled beef and good temperament. I’m not saying it’s the only breed that has these attributes but they are easily lost. If you genuinely think that all you get from a Hereford is a white face (mostly), then the breed is failing - which brings us neatly back to the start of this thread..

Mostly just playing devil's advocate tbh. I breed them. While I agree with all of those attributes, there's so much variation in the breed that there's plenty that don't have them and there's many breeds that would claim to have all those things as well. They don't have many standout points of difference from other breeds on the whole.
I wouldn't say the breed is failing as there's still plenty of good ones around, just seems to have lost its way a little.

Still no solution?

 

[Woolless]

@Woolless
It can only be a personal agenda and a power trip for these anonymous FAnGR members.
Clearly you don’t have to be rational or understand that it is breeders that make decisions about their breed rather than faceless unaccountable bureaucrats.
If I was a breeder involved in OP populations I would first send in a Freedom Of Information request to DEFRA asking for details of the decision making process and what consultation was carried out prior to the actions that have prejudiced the future of OP .
I would then consider judicial review of the process.
The civil service secretariat that service FAnGR is made up of graduates who don’t know one end of a cow from another. The real power lies with the ‘advisors’ I have a copy of an email from which the authors details have been redacted, which says Sheeted Somerset cattle breeders should not be allowed to do what we are doing. No explanation setting out what the legal obstacles are because there are none. However the civil service have acted on this advisors prejudices and they have thrown all manner of ridiculous obstacles in our way, none of which wil stand scrutiny in the High Court when I can afford to mount a challenge.

Thank you @topground. I think the RBST are on the case. It seems very odd that this decision was made out of the blue.

 

[Cowgirl]

But as you've suggested before, a breed can be altered within its own population through selection, so traits can be gained or lost regardless.

True but it takes time, patience and many generations of breeding. My concern with Herefords is that there are a lot of enthusiastic new breeders but they tend to be show people and may not be in it for the long haul - they may do the breed more damage.

 

[Cowgirl]

Mostly just playing devil's advocate tbh. I breed them. While I agree with all of those attributes, there's so much variation in the breed that there's plenty that don't have them and there's many breeds that would claim to have all those things as well. They don't have many standout points of difference from other breeds on the whole.
I wouldn't say the breed is failing as there's still plenty of good ones around, just seems to have lost its way a little.

Still no solution?

So why do you keep them then, if they have no advantages?
I don’t have a solution, but it seems to me that there are choices to be made by breed societies which have two genetically distinct populations. Up to now by forcing them to be “rare breeds”, they were hoping, I think, that the OPs would fade into oblivion without the breed society having to do anything about it, at which point they could boast that they have “improved“ the breed and no longer have to worry about their existence. Unfortunately for them, some OPs are actually increasing in numbers because they are finding a niche in pasture fed meat and the pesky people who breed them are not giving in. This is despite almost nothing in the way of promotion by the breed societies.
In my opinion the breed societies should admit that there has been introgression, that the two breeds are separate and call the modern breed something different (eg North American xxxx, because that is what it is). They should then continue to support both populations to keep the OPs going for the sake of genetic diversity and incentivise polled breeders to breed their animals back to the OP if they want to keep the breed united. I can dream I suppose..

 

[M-J-G]

True but it takes time, patience and many generations of breeding. My concern with Herefords is that there are a lot of enthusiastic new breeders but they tend to be show people and may not be in it for the long haul - they may do the breed more damage.

You are probably right, look at the hereford UK photograph champion, an impressive looking big bull, but never seen a day of tough conditions in his life.

Unfortunately these folks are present in most breeds these days .

 

[Bald n Grumpy]

True but it takes time, patience and many generations of breeding. My concern with Herefords is that there are a lot of enthusiastic new breeders but they tend to be show people and may not be in it for the long haul - they may do the breed more damage.

A lot of people with money keep pedigree stock as a pastime and also have the time to get onto committee/councils. Does breeds no good as they are there for their own benefit not the breeds. People who make their living from stock should be in control

 

[M-J-G]

A lot of people with money keep pedigree stock as a pastime and also have the time to get onto committee/councils. Does breeds no good as they are there for their own benefit not the breeds. People who make their living from stock should be in control

It's not just those with money though, and sometimes moneyed business people are better because they they tend as small minded as many farmers are.

At any breed meetings I've attended I've noticed that most full time breeders will vote to boost what they have at home.

 

[Gulli]

So why do you keep them then, if they have no advantages?
I don’t have a solution, but it seems to me that there are choices to be made by breed societies which have two genetically distinct populations. Up to now by forcing them to be “rare breeds”, they were hoping, I think, that the OPs would fade into oblivion without the breed society having to do anything about it, at which point they could boast that they have “improved“ the breed and no longer have to worry about their existence. Unfortunately for them, some OPs are actually increasing in numbers because they are finding a niche in pasture fed meat and the pesky people who breed them are not giving in. This is despite almost nothing in the way of promotion by the breed societies.
In my opinion the breed societies should admit that there has been introgression, that the two breeds are separate and call the modern breed something different (eg North American xxxx, because that is what it is). They should then continue to support both populations to keep the OPs going for the sake of genetic diversity and incentivise polled breeders to breed their animals back to the OP if they want to keep the breed united. I can dream I suppose..

Because I like them and I'm trying to breed the good ones...

There's no incentive to breed horns back into polled cattle, I honestly don't understand why anyone would want horns other than aesthetic purposes and that's no different to the big shampooed show bulls.
The society should be doing more for lots of things in the breed but that's just how societies work admitting introgression into a closed herd book is very unlikely, but drawing a line between modern Herefords and older Herefords is very difficult to do regardless. How far back down the pedigree line should you go before you make the decision? And if breeders are crossing in other breeds and not declaring it then you can't trust the pedigrees