Back to minimum tillage ?

DrWazzock · Jun 1, 2022

Personally I never a problem with residual preem herbicides in no till. And less seed chitted meant the herbicide had less work to do on broadleaved weeds. It always seemed counter intuitive spraying a preem onto a straw mat but it always seemed to work well enough.

Goodolddays · Jun 1, 2022

ajd132 said:
Niab have done work recently that in pure no till, the efficacy of herbicides is less, but so many other factors bring so much to the party they more than make up for it.

Was that really the conclusion from NIAB on those trials? Mulching from heavy trash may inhibit black-grass germination, but also had an impact on the wheat germination.

ajd132 · Jun 1, 2022

Goodolddays said:
Was that really the conclusion from NIAB on those trials? Mulching from heavy trash may inhibit black-grass germination, but also had an impact on the wheat germination.

Heavy trash is generally okay for winter crops as long as you know how to deal with/got the right gear.
For example using a disc drill to drill wheat into stripper headered oats. (I’ve learnt how to do this fairly well now from experience). Also the fact you hunt disturbed every surface inch of soil creating that perfect seedbed goes a long way to helping with blackgrass control.

I will add that I’m not talking about solely that one trial, I’m talking about John Cussans comments on the subject at I think the spring conference. The mulch trial was just one part of his thinking.

Banana Bar · Jun 1, 2022

I really wonder if heavy land dd spring crops are worth the apparent savings? I would say that in this area 90% of autumn Cultivated spring drilled crops look good ( albeit still desperate for rain ) vs 10 % of spring dd crops looking good. I have both although only 34 ha of dd oats vs 400 ha of light Autumn cultivations and spring drilled oats, barley and beans. The exceptions to this are where land has been autumn ploughed and dragged around numerous times to get a seedbed. We’ve only had 6 inches of rain since 1st January on the back of a dry winter, this is exaggerating all failings from all systems.

ajd132 · Jun 1, 2022

Banana Bar said:
I really wonder if heavy land dd spring crops are worth the apparent savings? I would say that in this area 90% of autumn Cultivated spring drilled crops look good ( albeit still desperate for rain ) vs 10 % of spring dd crops looking good. I have both although only 34 ha of dd oats vs 400 ha of light Autumn cultivations and spring drilled oats, barley and beans. The exceptions to this are where land has been autumn ploughed and dragged around numerous times to get a seedbed. We’ve only had 6 inches of rain since 1st January on the back of a dry winter, this is exaggerating all failings from all systems.

Fairly happy DD oats in the spring but barley not so much. Needs some movement to help I think although the last two years have been fine.
I can definitely see why none of you ever grew spring crops around here up until a few years ago.

Humble Village Farmer · Jun 1, 2022

It's a bit optimistic to expect soils to become fully functioning after a couple of years notill, preceded by 70 odd years of modern farming techniques.

It could take 20 or 30 years to get soil in the sort of state where did works all the time.

Flat 10 · Jun 1, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
It's a bit optimistic to expect soils to become fully functioning after a couple of years notill, preceded by 70 odd years of modern farming techniques.

It could take 20 or 30 years to get soil in the sort of state where did works all the time.

Do you really think it will improve for that long?!

Lincsman · Jun 1, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
It's a bit optimistic to expect soils to become fully functioning after a couple of years notill, preceded by 70 odd years of modern farming techniques.

It could take 20 or 30 years to get soil in the sort of state where did works all the time.

Ploughing has been going on for more than 70 years, and if its going to take 30 years to get a reliable crop every year, anyone over 30 might as well carry on ploughing.

Humble Village Farmer · Jun 1, 2022

Flat 10 said:
Do you really think it will improve for that long?!

Don't know. I think it's really about how much carbon has gone and how much can be got back in.

snarling bee · Jun 1, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
It's a bit optimistic to expect soils to become fully functioning after a couple of years notill, preceded by 70 odd years of modern farming techniques.

It could take 20 or 30 years to get soil in the sort of state where did works all the time.

Hurrah. My point all along.
1000's tonnes compost is the best way if you can't wait 30 years IMO

T Hectares · Jun 2, 2022

Lincsman said:
Do you get a nice fine seedbed for Pre ems to work compared to other systems... I certainly cannot.

Yes, light soil here

ajd132 · Jun 2, 2022

snarling bee said:
Hurrah. My point all along.
1000's tonnes compost is the best way if you can't wait 30 years IMO

You definitely dont need 30 years for no till to work, our crops look great apart again apart from spring barley which does seem trickier some years. pas100 compost is the most worthless and biologically inert product possible, just a load of fluff, I wouldn’t take it for free. I’ve seen some great home made compost though.

ajd132 · Jun 2, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
It's a bit optimistic to expect soils to become fully functioning after a couple of years notill, preceded by 70 odd years of modern farming techniques.

It could take 20 or 30 years to get soil in the sort of state where did works all the time.

What do you mean? to make soils that dont need inputs?

teslacoils · Jun 2, 2022

Whatever depth you move heavy land, you need to consolidate it afterwards. The error was the Simba DD packer and the "weatherproof" finish. It turns less to slop if it's consolidated. Maybe counter intuitive, but the wet runs and accumulates where the soil density changes quickest. Hence the ploughed stays dry on top but wet pudding below.

Solo works fine here but then I'll run the power Harrow straight behind. Likewise, twice over with the discs and press at 2" works better with the rolls straight behind.

Humble Village Farmer · Jun 2, 2022

ajd132 said:
What do you mean? to make soils that dont need inputs?

No. That they've lost a lot of organic matter over hundreds of years of cultivation. Remember the traditional method of weed control was cultivated fallow.

So what I meant was it's a long process getting all that carbon back in, just my opinion but I think it's quite a long old job before we get really healthy soils that are easy to farm.

Renaultman · Jun 2, 2022

Lincsman said:
Do you get a nice fine seedbed for Pre ems to work compared to other systems... I certainly cannot.

I'm starting to think 200l/ha with good quality nozzles (defys for me) and accept a less than perfect seed bed, allows my wheat to get away better than overworking the land and getting slumping and poorer natural drainage if we get a very wet post drilling period

Pan mixer · Jun 2, 2022

DD spring crops definitely doesn't work for me.

History of the field below - mucho BG when I took it over in 16, grassed down after tickling top and glypho.

3 years mowed ley, no seeding at all. Perfect kill after, no BG at all.

2 years spring barley min till (top 2 inches to bury clean fym) with winter cover (unsuccessful mainly) no BG.

Min till last autumn to make enough soil to bury more fym, glypho, drill WW, pre ems and avadex and post ems.

return to plough this year I think, then SB and then back to grass.

Verdict; WW encourages BG.

Devil's advocate · Jun 2, 2022

Pan mixer said:
DD spring crops definitely doesn't work for me.

History of the field below - mucho BG when I took it over in 16, grassed down after tickling top and glypho.

3 years mowed ley, no seeding at all. Perfect kill after, no BG at all.

2 years spring barley min till (top 2 inches to bury clean fym) with winter cover (unsuccessful mainly) no BG.

Min till last autumn to make enough soil to bury more fym, glypho, drill WW, pre ems and avadex and post ems.

View attachment 1040094

return to plough this year I think, then SB and then back to grass.

Verdict; WW encourages BG.

seed from the fym?

Lincsman · Jun 2, 2022

Humble Village Farmer said:
No. That they've lost a lot of organic matter over hundreds of years of cultivation. Remember the traditional method of weed control was cultivated fallow.

So what I meant was it's a long process getting all that carbon back in, just my opinion but I think it's quite a long old job before we get really healthy soils that are easy to farm.

Unless you are a time traveler how do you know what you suggest will be the right thing in 30 years time?

I know of land that was never ever ever ploughed or cultivated brought under the plough about 20 years ago when fields were amalgamated with long cultivated ones, after 3 years there was no real difference

Pan mixer · Jun 2, 2022

Devil's advocate said:
seed from the fym?

definitely not, we are very careful about that.

Back to minimum tillage ?

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