Only to degree level. Mea culpa.
Ah, like pigs ? Got it
.You're really not understanding vertical integration are you ?
The cartel are coming for you.
- Thread starter delilah
- Start date
Only to degree level. Mea culpa.
Ah, like pigs ? Got it
.You're really not understanding vertical integration are you ?
I can post all night on that. I want you to back up your claim that the cartel want a diverse food system first.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
I don't know what you determine a 'diverse' food system is. But given the disparity between numbers of supermarkets and numbers of farmers, they could drive a LOT of farmers out of business and still have market power over them. So my guess is that they will drive the numbers of farmers down until they are at a level that if they went further then the remainder would start to gain market power. But it would never be to the point there are half a dozen milk producers in the UK (for example). That would be counterproductive from their point of view.
Ah, so Tesco are going to take over farms and run them themselves are they? Good luck with that. I can't see the employees working 60-80 hour weeks in the wind and rain for less than minimum wage. The current system suits the supermarkets down to the ground. You have people working for a pittance and still supplying them with food. You take the small producers out of the equation and make the whole thing more corporate and the costs will go through the roof. Why do you think the Co-Op sold off its farms?
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
Thats easy, as I said, they want it diverse enough that they can control it but few enough that each producer is still only a small fraction of the overall market.
And to be honest either way we are screwed. As it is we are at the supermarkets beck and call, and if they drive the producer numbers down to a tenth of what there is now those are still going to be at their beck and call. Maintaining lots of producers isn't going to help one jot.
So, no examples then.
You don't have to be owned by the cartel, to be owned by the cartel.
Ah, like pigs ? Got it
You missed that one out. Any thoughts on how that 'level playing field' has panned out ?
Still no examples of this 'sweet spot' of yours then.
Yeah you're really not understanding are you. I'm not talking about 'maintaining lots of producers', i'm talking about the structure of the food chain.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
How many pig producers are there in the UK? According to this (https://ahdb.org.uk/pork/uk-pig-numbers-and-holdings) there were 10k in 2019. Vs 10 supermarket chains. Thats not a level playing field. Come back to me when pig production in the UK is controlled by 10 or 20 producers. Then see who has pricing power.
You got a more meaningful breakdown of that ? We are a pig producer. We have one sow. What you have posted is meaningless.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
Your own OP said:
And
You say supermarkets want to drive producers out of the market and you want to stop them doing that. That means maintaining the current level of producer numbers.
No. All meaningful change is demand driven. Any policy that says 'we need lots of primary producers' as it's primary aim, is doomed. Again, I am talking about the food chain, not the primary producer. You know this.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
Here's some other figures:
United Kingdom: A pig industry on the edge - Pig Progress
United Kingdom: A pig industry on the edge
www.pigprogress.net
The largest 10 producers of pigs in the UK produce 35% of the total, so on average 3.5% each. That still leaves 65% by far smaller producers, there's 1000 producing 90% of production. Thats not by any stretch of the imagination a level playing field with a dozen supermarket chains.
You just said that farmers should be aware if they don't want to close the farm gate! How is that not talking about maintaining producer levels?
Do you think that producer levels should stay the same, rise or fall from current levels then?
And under your 'sweet spot' scenario the cartel want to keep it at that do they ? They are actively working to stop further concentration ?
I am saying that you achieve nothing by using the primary producer as your starting point.
In a more diverse food system, there would be more primary producers.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
They import it, and that one big producer suddenly has no market at all. I’ve seen this with carrot growers. There are very few left but they are all held over a barrel to imports. No one dare upset a buyer as it would finish them. This might sound counterintuitive in the conventional economic sense but it’s the actuality.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
No there wouldn't. If you broke up the supermarkets and there were 50 supermarket chains they would all still have more pricing power than the average farmer. And for there to be more primary producers the average price of farm outputs would have to rise significantly, so a smaller acreage could make a living. And we all know that the one thing the government cares about is cheap food for the masses, so rising output prices by that sort of degree is just not going to be allowed to happen. And ironically if farm output prices went up a lot the first thing that would happen is that corporate money would fly into farming to get a cut of the action and farm sizes would rise not fall. There just isn't a mechanism (in a free market) that allows small producers to make good profits and stops consolidation of holdings at the same time.
And come back to me when your sustain lot have a campaign against Net Zero, because thats what the supermarkets are using to drive all this 'emissions' malarkey.
Put your Armadillo helmet down Delilah. It is quite obvious that scratching the surface of our food supply chain will immediately expose that we are the least to blame as producers of local and sustainable food. It will expose the food miles of many non seasonal extravagances, the cheap North Atlantic prawns shipped to the far east to be shelled and returned. The epicentre of sustainable food lies with us, so we need to do our small part in the exercise to farm better.... which in all honesty should not be difficult, technology in agriculture has come on in leaps and bounds since the boom in yield increase. Tesco reaching for financial backup from farmers... are they fleecing us, yes they are if you let them, are they shitting themselves that they just can't put prices up fast enough against competitors to remain market leaders and profitable, almost certainly. If Tesco are in that situation they all are. Maybe, just maybe, we are about to see the biggest devolution in our food supply change recognisable... judging by the massive issue of empty shelves it has already started, and we as British farmers are doing a super job of keeping the bare necessities there.
- Location
- Lincolnshire
I can see I’ll have to take matters into my own hands. Reinstate the roadside stall. Wish I had never got rid of it. It was the most honest most satisfying form of farming and trading. No RT. No other bollox. And if a customer tells me to eff off or I told one to eff off it didn’t matter as I’d hundreds. Tatty kits always cheap so I’ll be back in the game next year if I can regain my mojo and get the Mrs back on her rocker. That’s what it comes down to. This time next year Rodney. Luvvly jubbly. Nice bit of cash. Know what I mean.
They're busy sticking the knife in upland livestock farmers, and anyone farming land the 'trees'R'luverly' w4nkers want.
Goweresque
Member
- Location
- North Wilts
Except in @delilah world everyone will be doing the same thing (lots of small producers) so they'll all be cutting each others throats just to try and make a living. Sound familiar?