Life after BPS producing food from cattle and sheep.

Kiwi Pete · Jun 22, 2023

Northern territory said:
Do you think keeping young stock rather than cows allows you to keep a higher stocking rate as you have more options when to sell and offload stock.

Not really. I guess if we wanted it to be that way, then, sure, we could have a lot of flexibility.

But it's nearly a 12 hour round trip if we want to shift animals down from the valley, or shift some back up.
It's doable, but we are basically locked in, just like the cow operation is.

On the home farm, it's pretty similar. My nerves are a wreck from last year's shenanigans, while we could do that again, we could also never have a repeat and I wouldn't haggle.

I think there's a lot to be said for just picking a number (or a stocking rate) and holding on for the ride.

If we barely get through the summer with lots per hectare, chances are we would barely get through the summer with a smaller number, and just have more sh!t grass.
Give me the higher number. Grass grows back in time. Plan time.

livestock 1 · Jun 22, 2023

Old apprentice said:
Has it had fertilizer not just lime. There is a concern to me that there is a variety of grass in that picture that grows into tusoks which is a strong unpalatable for livestock.

It’s had both. We might need to re educate you as land that has had rush infestation grows that tussock grass and the cattle do eat it and improve it. That pasture has only had sheep on this year until a week ago when we put cattle in.

Old apprentice · Jun 22, 2023

livestock 1 said:
It’s had both. We might need to re educate you as land that has had rush infestation grows that tussock grass and the cattle do eat it and improve it. That pasture has only had sheep on this year until a week ago when we put cattle in.

I know I have sprayed of rushes and the tussock, grass can be very invasive .

livestock 1 · Jun 22, 2023

Old apprentice said:
I know I have sprayed of rushes and the tussock, grass can be very invasive .

It’s a bit of a pain isn’t it. Solve one problem and another appears. Cattle did clean it completely off last year which I was surprised with as they were just yearling cattle but didn’t have much else available at the time

unlacedgecko · Jun 22, 2023

Kiwi Pete said:
Yeah, I was thinking 5-600 cows. 30 minutes per cow? Still leaves time to go catch a fish

Handling system size and efficiency is the limiting factor, assuming sufficient fence and water infrastructure are in place.

Lifting a wire for 200hd takes no less time than lifting a wire for 2,000hd.

gone up the hill · Jun 22, 2023

livestock 1 said:
I’ve outwintered a lot of cattle in the past it’s not the place to be doing it really

That is the thing, all very well saying out winter but a large % of farms cannot do this without causing a lot of poaching/ mess in the winter months which then costs a lot to put right the following year

And who wants to be scrabbling about in mid winter foot deep in mud every day!

gone up the hill · Jun 22, 2023

Frank-the-Wool said:
All sheep need to be un shepherded that way we compete with Australia and NZ.
This will be difficult in some areas as there are too many people looking over the hedge or walking along the footpaths.
Will have to go round once a day and shoot the problem ones and collect the bodies to comply with legislation rather than go on holiday at lambing time!!

Go back to seasonal lambing so no housing.

sell all lambs as stores.
Self replacing flocks.
Put value back into wool rather than breed it away.

Cattle will have to be a high proportion of native cattle that are not housed or only for a short period. Run more extensively and cows only eat grass, hay or forage crops.
Sell all calves as stores to feedlots / finishing units which can produce beef from by products if there are any left!

Or get rid of all the stock and just have the low input grassland and do nothing!!! Probably make more money.

Forget about increasing the value of wool ! it will never happen to the point it will be worthwhile.

Selling lambs as stores is fine but you still need a lot of smaller farmer buyers to want them as well as the big boys or else trade will be low and if the small farmers are pushed out ( which is clearly the intention ) which looks very likely to happen!

gone up the hill · Jun 22, 2023

AndrewM said:
SAM3: Herbal leys What you’ll be paid You’ll receive £382 per hectare per year?

convert all your grassland to herbal leys, you will be getting more money than yoou do currently under bps?

How much an acre is seed for herbal leys?

What is the best time of year to drill them?

Farmer Keith · Jun 22, 2023

If your land is too wet to outwinter you maybe better off moving the cattle to an arable farm for the winter onto stubbles and fetch them back in the spring rather than housing them. You’d carry more stock over summer as you’d not need to make as much crop and the arable farmer might just bite your hand off to get the muck.

gone up the hill · Jun 22, 2023

Farmer Keith said:
If your land is too wet to outwinter you maybe better off moving the cattle to an arable farm for the winter onto stubbles and fetch them back in the spring rather than housing them. You’d carry more stock over summer as you’d not need to make as much crop and the arable farmer might just bite your hand off to get the muck.

TB
TB
TB

And most arable farmers do not have the staff or skills/ set ups to look after/handle cattle for several months of the year!

Optimus · Jun 22, 2023

Farmer Keith said:
If your land is too wet to outwinter you maybe better off moving the cattle to an arable farm for the winter onto stubbles and fetch them back in the spring rather than housing them. You’d carry more stock over summer as you’d not need to make as much crop and the arable farmer might just bite your hand off to get the muck.

I've been wondering about this.theres a couple near me that usually buy young stock for the winter .I'm wondering if they'd like to take 100 spring Calvers from December- march.i know they want the cattle as there after the muck.

gone up the hill · Jun 22, 2023

Optimus said:
I've been wondering about this.theres a couple near me that usually buy young stock for the winter .I'm wondering if they'd like to take 100 spring Calvers from December- march.i know they want the cattle as there after the muck.

Why not go and have a chat to them on a rainy day?

Pistonbroke · Jun 22, 2023

Farmer Keith said:
If your land is too wet to outwinter you maybe better off moving the cattle to an arable farm for the winter onto stubbles and fetch them back in the spring rather than housing them. You’d carry more stock over summer as you’d not need to make as much crop and the arable farmer might just bite your hand off to get the muck.

Trouble is,if you're in an upland outright livestock area there's no arable land to use like that. Closest farm to us that tried outwintering cattle on kale and bales had the RSPCA after them every day because do gooders were reporting the "poor cows stuck in mud and freezing to death". There is much to learn and admire about how NZ farms do things but a lot of it isn't transferable to all of the UK because of the length of winter and other parties or agencies poking their noses in.

AndrewM · Jun 22, 2023

gone up the hill said:
How much an acre is seed for herbal leys?

What is the best time of year to drill them?

This is on the my to do list to find out.
I see mention that u can overseed/stich into permanent pasture. If it costs £200 a Ha and lasts 3-5 years your still winning big time.

I Need to find out if it's possible to introduce it into flood plain meadows.

Herbal leys seem to vary from ryegrass fields with a bit of clover chicory plantain, upto really complicated mixes with lots of flowers and not much grass. So not sure what they want.

Doesn't seem to include any restrictions on fertiliser or herbicides unlike the countryside stewardship herbal leys

unlacedgecko · Jun 22, 2023

Pistonbroke said:
Trouble is,if you're in an upland outright livestock area there's no arable land to use like that. Closest farm to us that tried outwintering cattle on kale and bales had the RSPCA after them every day because do gooders were reporting the "poor cows stuck in mud and freezing to death". There is much to learn and admire about how NZ farms do things but a lot of it isn't transferable to all of the UK because of the length of winter and other parties or agencies poking their noses in.

Maybe we looking at this arse about face?

Stock cattle to wintering carrying capacity for all grass wintering. Then flex summer numbers with bought in sheep, either tackers or outfits bought from an agent.

No forage crops, no TB, no relying on other people's staff.

Pistonbroke · Jun 22, 2023

unlacedgecko said:
Maybe we looking at this arse about face?

Stock cattle to wintering carrying capacity for all grass wintering. Then flex summer numbers with bought in sheep, either tackers or outfits bought from an agent.

No forage crops, no TB, no relying on other people's staff.

I'm sure there's parts of the country that can cope with outwintering cattle bit there's no way we could without ruining the fields. I have no problem with people doing it where suitable but it's sheds and machinery needed here ,I'm afraid

Wood field · Jun 22, 2023

We can put cows on moor , but that means ( officially) removing sheep to keep the allowed numbers correct
Still has the hassle factor of winter feeding plus dog walkers / off roaders etc for the few cows we have winter housing works for us , with the benefit of the muck to spread
Regarding the original thread topic , we will plod on with no subs , we are fortunate that although a small farm we have no borrowing
Otherwise, I am trying to improve the grass and either look for winter grazing or reduce numbers
We bought our place in dribs and drabs , it’s poor land so no way it will grow fodder crops , I am still convinced the powers that be want to de stock the hills but if they have no hold over us with money then they can kiss my arse

Henarar · Jun 22, 2023

Well I think the low input offer plus the hedgerow offer and the in hedge trees, plus a few other things and we will be back up to BPS levels of payment, cut the cattle numbers if we have to and just keep the pedigree British blues as they seem to do well on low input unlike continentals,
a few more sheep and put my feet up and annoy folk that get offended on TFF.
Or alternatively none of the above, not had my mind made up yet.

ford4000 · Jun 22, 2023

livestock 1 said:
For what I’m hearing there will be dispersals
A lot of farms haven’t made decent profits for years

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unlacedgecko · Jun 22, 2023

ford4000 said:
View attachment 1120062

See my early comments about UK/NZ respective landmass and farmer numbers.

Life after BPS producing food from cattle and sheep.

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Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

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