AHL2 - Winter Bird Food

moretimeforgolf · Nov 9, 2023

Billboy1 said:
just do ahl2 plus no pesticide every year 314 squid / a easy

Exactly! Less work for us and our machines, less space required to store crops, less expensive fertiliser and pesticides to pay for a year in advance and less stress all over!

Clive · Nov 9, 2023

Humble Village Farmer said:
I suspect the period in question is the autumn and winter when the birds are feeding on the seed.

the sfi period is the 12 months after your chosen start fir x3 years

Try to succeed · Nov 9, 2023

I’ve been giving this option a lot of thought to get the most out of it. I’ve had it in writing from the RPA that it can be done as Clive has stated, with the 3+3 if we wanted to. But why risk it when you can cheaply put a smattering of phacelia etc to make up 6 in the first place anyway. Then go ahead with the spring cover crop mix.
My current plan is go back to the old two cereals/break rotation. I’ll plant 6 species in July after barley and potentially after my earliest wheat, claim my 732, then stack IPM3 on the following spring £55, then to ensure the pollinator aim is achieved use the opportunity in March/April to take black grass out, and sow a mix of phacelia/peas/forage osr and turnips to be grazed in summer. I’ll not pay for the forage seed and won’t need to waste time topping. So add on local grazing rate, you’re up near £900/ha for potentially £30-40/ha of seed.
I think we need to be careful re summer sown seed choice from drought tolerance/seeding potential/cost/and how much biomass each species would produce at certain plant densities (I have a tine drill so don’t want to get stuck in spring with trash). I have buckwheat that was sown in last week of August that has edible seed now, and that had been checked by early frost and still achieved that. Fodder radish would seed in that time too. I’m thinking maybe millet (low rate) and phacelia in there. Does it matter if not all the species provide that seed? If you have a massive supply of fodder radish and buckwheat, will the birds be bothered that your phacelia only flowered for the bees? If an inspector turns up and there is a supply of calories in that field, then what’s the problem? The birds wouldn’t be hungry.
Another benefit is that on the rest of the acreage the sheep man can’t cover, I’ll do a heavy rate of peas with a smattering of phacelia and osr, take my £55 and potentially harvest it as a bonus. I won’t add the ipm4 £45 as il be following it with wheat, which I do spray. This pea crop would be a bonus as the mix is only there to ensure the summer pollinator aim in case they’re not happy enough with the pre winter mix. It also saves a long winded time on the topper! I don’t want to follow with spring barley as I want wheat in after it.

I think it’s interesting that I’ve been to a couple of sfi meetings and almost got laughed at outlining the above, as the ‘consultants’ or agronomists are extremely keen on recommending the legume fallow option on failed osr ground. That’s fine in year one, but you can only reduce by 50% for the next two years. I don’t know why though when I think about what I’ve explained above? They say fodder radish won’t seed before winter, but I have late July sown fodder radish in seed now (and it’s cheap and birds love it). What am I missing? Is it because as consultants they want to reign in the perceived risk of recommending such an option?
If it isn’t ticking their boxes upon inspection then hopefully they’ll stick to their word and give guidance but pay you up to that point.

Hindsight · Nov 9, 2023

Try to succeed said:
I’ve been giving this option a lot of thought to get the most out of it. I’ve had it in writing from the RPA that it can be done as Clive has stated, with the 3+3 if we wanted to. But why risk it when you can cheaply put a smattering of phacelia etc to make up 6 in the first place anyway. Then go ahead with the spring cover crop mix.
My current plan is go back to the old two cereals/break rotation. I’ll plant 6 species in July after barley and potentially after my earliest wheat, claim my 732, then stack IPM3 on the following spring £55, then to ensure the pollinator aim is achieved use the opportunity in March/April to take black grass out, and sow a mix of phacelia/peas/forage osr and turnips to be grazed in summer. I’ll not pay for the forage seed and won’t need to waste time topping. So add on local grazing rate, you’re up near £900/ha for potentially £30-40/ha of seed.
I think we need to be careful re summer sown seed choice from drought tolerance/seeding potential/cost/and how much biomass each species would produce at certain plant densities (I have a tine drill so don’t want to get stuck in spring with trash). I have buckwheat that was sown in last week of August that has edible seed now, and that had been checked by early frost and still achieved that. Fodder radish would seed in that time too. I’m thinking maybe millet (low rate) and phacelia in there. Does it matter if not all the species provide that seed? If you have a massive supply of fodder radish and buckwheat, will the birds be bothered that your phacelia only flowered for the bees? If an inspector turns up and there is a supply of calories in that field, then what’s the problem? The birds wouldn’t be hungry.
Another benefit is that on the rest of the acreage the sheep man can’t cover, I’ll do a heavy rate of peas with a smattering of phacelia and osr, take my £55 and potentially harvest it as a bonus. I won’t add the ipm4 £45 as il be following it with wheat, which I do spray. This pea crop would be a bonus as the mix is only there to ensure the summer pollinator aim in case they’re not happy enough with the pre winter mix. It also saves a long winded time on the topper! I don’t want to follow with spring barley as I want wheat in after it.

I think it’s interesting that I’ve been to a couple of sfi meetings and almost got laughed at outlining the above, as the ‘consultants’ or agronomists are extremely keen on recommending the legume fallow option on failed osr ground. That’s fine in year one, but you can only reduce by 50% for the next two years. I don’t know why though when I think about what I’ve explained above? They say fodder radish won’t seed before winter, but I have late July sown fodder radish in seed now (and it’s cheap and birds love it). What am I missing? Is it because as consultants they want to reign in the perceived risk of recommending such an option?
If it isn’t ticking their boxes upon inspection then hopefully they’ll stick to their word and give guidance but pay you up to that point.

Thank you for that detailed explanation. Is good to knock around these ideas.

When will you submit your SFI application to get a start date? Is it possible to ask for a start date - or is it just a case of next month after submission of application. How does your 'system' work with different start dates? Have you Winter Barley in now to follow next July? I was chatting through the possibility of Legume Fallow earlier today on two farms where we have area of failed rape but also failed wheat. Thought we could put in an area of legume fallow to get an income for 2024 and then reduce by 50% for year 2 and 3. You have a sheep grazing option which sounds good - without that maybe the legume fallow OK? Not sure your reference to 50% reduction - same applies to Bird Cover if one wants to reduce - your post made it sound as though a difference between legume fallow and bird cover. Cheers.

Try to succeed · Nov 9, 2023

Hindsight said:
Thank you for that detailed explanation. Is good to knock around these ideas.

When will you submit your SFI application to get a start date? Is it possible to ask for a start date - or is it just a case of next month after submission of application. How does your 'system' work with different start dates? Have you Winter Barley in now to follow next July? I was chatting through the possibility of Legume Fallow earlier today on two farms where we have area of failed rape but also failed wheat. Thought we could put in an area of legume fallow to get an income for 2024 and then reduce by 50% for year 2 and 3. You have a sheep grazing option which sounds good - without that maybe the legume fallow OK? Not sure your reference to 50% reduction - same applies to Bird Cover if one wants to reduce - your post made it sound as though a difference between legume fallow and bird cover. Cheers.

Would start dates be a massive issue for AHL2? I’d be more concerned for start date re non use of insecticide.
I have the added issue of reapplying for the arable offer; which was drawn up before they revised the sfi. So currently I’m about to send in revisions to my arable offer to get rid of nectar mixes etc and put them in higher return and less restrictive grassy field corners and blocks under sfi. I need them to process that application before my sfi areas will be accurate to apply. So it’ll end up being Jan I guess if they get on with it. I’m being penalised for being in stewardship essentially.
I don’t have barley in now unfortunately as the floods wiped it out along with some wheats. So this year I may have to forego my winter cropping on a lot of land, and put that AHL2 in reasonably early. But in a normal year, the appeal is a winter crop before and after it. It’s the only financially viable way to make it attractive and uncomplicated. Drilling in spring and losing that cropping slot just isn’t good enough.
re the legume fallow, I’ve heard folks say you might be left with copious amounts of grassy material thigh high to deal with before getting a crop in after it. That sounds hard work but I’ve never grown it so I’m unsure. It’s not as attractive as my AHL2 plan. That rotational option is what we need if osr is going to be such high risk. Ye the 50% comment related to if you put all your failed osr into legume fallow to get out of trouble this year, then be aware you have to follow it through with at least half that amount in yr 2 and 3. As you say, that’s the same for bird seed. It’s just a case of taking care to not over commit, which could easily be done if you had a high percentage of failed osr.

teslacoils · Nov 9, 2023

Currently I'm on a 3yr grass, 3yr wheat rotation. I'm looking to drop the grass for 3 years of SFi. In that case, is 3 years of winter bird food with no insecticide the best option, over three years of legume fallow? Best for me also means best wheats in three years time, rather than a regretful weedy mess.

farmerm · Nov 13, 2023

teslacoils said:
Currently I'm on a 3yr grass, 3yr wheat rotation. I'm looking to drop the grass for 3 years of SFi. In that case, is 3 years of winter bird food with no insecticide the best option, over three years of legume fallow? Best for me also means best wheats in three years time, rather than a regretful weedy mess.

How do you get back into wheat in 3 years, by my reckoning 3 years AHL2 after wheat takes out 4 cropping windows unless you spring crop.

Starting from taking out some of the grass or on a failed crop this Autumn into the conventional bird food drilling period.

AHl2
1 Drill Bird seed spring 2024
2 Drill Bird seed spring 2025
3 Drill Bird seed spring 2026
4 Bird seed ends 1st March 2027... drill Wheat Autumn 2027

3 drillings, 3 lots of bird seed, no wheat harvested until summer 2028

Legume fallow
1 Drill legume fallow spring 2024
2 Manage legume fallow 2025
3 Manage legume fallow 2026 1st September aim achieved, drill wheat Autumn 2026
4 Harvest Wheat 2027

1 drilling 1 lot of legume seed, 2 years legume management topping/weed control, 1 desiccation, 1 crop of wheat harvested in summer 2027

There is another option
AHL3 Grassy Blocks
1 Drill cheap grass seed spring 2024
2 do nothing 2025
3 do nothing 2026 Now I am not quiet sure if you could drill wheat Autumn 2026, I guess the drilling anniversary is the date when you have met the aim of 3 years, year around cover so
4 Drill wheat 2027
5 Harvest Wheat 2028

teslacoils · Nov 13, 2023

To be perfectly honest, I not going to be farming in three years, so Im not sure I really care.

Im doing legume fallow and the grass with flowery bits instead now.

Try to succeed · Nov 13, 2023

teslacoils said:
Currently I'm on a 3yr grass, 3yr wheat rotation. I'm looking to drop the grass for 3 years of SFi. In that case, is 3 years of winter bird food with no insecticide the best option, over three years of legume fallow? Best for me also means best wheats in three years time, rather than a regretful weedy mess.

I’d say from my stewardship experience don’t do a biannual mix if doing it that way. Year two might save some seed/establishment costs if you had some kale in it, but it’ll be full of thistles etc.

teslacoils · Nov 13, 2023

Try to succeed said:
I’d say from my stewardship experience don’t do a biannual mix if doing it that way. Year two might save some seed/establishment costs if you had some kale in it, but it’ll be full of thistles etc.

Yes, in mid tier the legume fallow mix was very successful and occasional spot thistle control was all that was needed. tbh it was only idealism that stopped me doing more of the farm that way in the first place - the idea that folk would appreciate a lovely field of high-yielding ryegrass rather than a stewardship mix which was "not doing it properly" even if the grass was a much worse paying option.

Beefbullock · Nov 13, 2023

We are considering this option AHL2 too.
Sowing in July after a crop of winter barley. Leaving the AHL2 until April/May the following spring before Strip Tilling a crop of Forage Maize into the topped residue of AHL2. Would adding a companion crop whilst sowing the Maize retain the full status of the AHL2 whilst also having a cash crop of Maize to harvest in the autumn prior to returning to winter wheat?

BBE · Nov 14, 2023

farmerm said:
I think ahead of a spring AHL1 a Turnip/Forage rape mix would be the opportunity to achieve the aims of SAM3 Over winter cover which pays £129/ha. SAM3 into AHL1 would pay £743, that is more than AHL2... On top of that there is a potential grazing opportunity too....

Has anyone run this past the advisors, surely too good to be true? August established SAM3 destroyed in spring and followed with AHL1 then wheat in September?

I like the ALH2 followed by spring cover idea but we are too far north to have a realistic chance of winter seed from a late July/ early august drilled cover.

farmerm · Nov 14, 2023

Try to succeed said:
I’d say from my stewardship experience don’t do a biannual mix if doing it that way. Year two might save some seed/establishment costs if you had some kale in it, but it’ll be full of thistles etc.

Butterflies love thistles, and drilling has a carbon cost... embrace the butterflies and the CO2 reduction

farmerm · Nov 14, 2023

BBE said:
Has anyone run this past the advisors, surely too good to be true? August established SAM3 destroyed in spring and followed with AHL1 then wheat in September?

I like the ALH2 followed by spring cover idea but we are too far north to have a realistic chance of winter seed from a late July/ early august drilled cover.

I may not be as far North by I share you concerns about having a realistic chance of an August AHL2 here. If we have an early enough Barley harvest the AHL2 will be going into concrete and dust and in a normal wet year we would really be pushing the limits. I have not run it past anyone yet but I can see nothing that would prevent SAM3 into AHL1/Num3. If grazing you would have to be mindful not to overgraze/poach the SAM3 until late feb. To meet the establish within 12 months rule, would need some AHL1/Num3 this coming spring or the AHL1/Num3 would need to be an add on next year

Against_the_grain · Nov 14, 2023

I emailed the RPA and have now had confirmation that you cannot plant crops such as s barley/potatoes/maize in the spring following AHL2 as it is a full year option.
I think this is a real shame as it rules out this option for tens of thousands of hectares imo.
I think the full year is beyond the aims of the 'winter bird food' requirement but that's what they have said.

ploughman1963 · Nov 14, 2023

Against_the_grain said:
I emailed the RPA and have now had confirmation that you cannot plant crops such as s barley/potatoes/maize in the spring following AHL2 as it is a full year option.
I think this is a real shame as it rules out this option for tens of thousands of hectares imo.
I think the full year is beyond the aims of the 'winter bird food' requirement but that's what they have said.

thank you - yes, I feared it might be the case

farmerm · Nov 14, 2023

Against_the_grain said:
I emailed the RPA and have now had confirmation that you cannot plant crops such as s barley/potatoes/maize in the spring following AHL2 as it is a full year option.
I think this is a real shame as it rules out this option for tens of thousands of hectares imo.
I think the full year is beyond the aims of the 'winter bird food' requirement but that's what they have said.

The name is misleading without a doubt.

Just to be clear are RPA saying no spring crop after AHL2 or do they mean no spring crop after AHL2 drilled after 15th June. AB9 was never a full year option, more like 9 months. May/June until Feb, you provide 1 summer and 1 winter and are then free to spring plant, you didn't have to wait until May.... The removal of the June drilling cut off date just adds the option of Clives plan for a winter followed by a summer not just a summer followed by winter as was originally the case.

e3120 · Nov 14, 2023

I have to ask: Did you guys honestly think it was credible to have a cash crop either side of a winter hoovering up decent taxpayer money?

It's embarrassing in the public domain and gives the impression there's loads of free money for all sectors.

Against_the_grain · Nov 14, 2023

e3120 said:
I have to ask: Did you guys honestly think it was credible to have a cash crop either side of a winter hoovering up decent taxpayer money?

It's embarrassing in the public domain and gives the impression there's loads of free money for all sectors.

Frankly yes. Providing a very large (100Ha) amount of winter bird food to meet the environmental aims of the government is a public good I can get behind. I see no benefit to keeping the mix beyond that date in regards to bird feed, so what's the problem. In reality now I won't plant any so everyone loses

teslacoils · Nov 14, 2023

e3120 said:
I have to ask: Did you guys honestly think it was credible to have a cash crop either side of a winter hoovering up decent taxpayer money?

It's embarrassing in the public domain and gives the impression there's loads of free money for all sectors.

Its clearly not free money - its a payment for a thing that apparently the public want. Like all businesses, if given a set of parameters, its wise to explore just what can be done inside those.

AHL2 - Winter Bird Food

Member

Staff Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

Member

0 %

Up to 25%

25-50%

50-75%

75-100%

100% I’ve had enough of farming!

Share this page