TB and dribble bars

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

Bald Rick said:
Ah .. gotcha now.

Not the fault of the grant system though.
Perhaps they should have bought injectors if it is such a big issue

The challenge is that IF it causes a rise in TB due to infection from badgers into cattle then onwards through slurry application it makes the control of the wildlife vector harder to prove has worked.

The increased number of dribble bars could have negated any benefit of the cull.

Some farmers are lead by grants not what's actually the best for their system.

O'Reilly · Jul 13, 2021

Sid said:
The challenge is that IF it causes a rise in TB due to infection from badgers into cattle then onwards through slurry application it makes the control of the wildlife vector harder to prove has worked.

The increased number of dribble bars could have negated any benefit of the cull.

Some farmers are lead by grants not what's actually the best for their system.

No, they have considered that a dribble bar would allow them to make better use of their slurry, which is a win for them and the environment, but they were not aware of this particular side effect. By all means make everyone aware, but to be so inflammatory is unnecessary. This forum was so much nicer when you buggered off.

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

O'Reilly said:
No, they have considered that a dribble bar would allow them to make better use of their slurry, which is a win for them and the environment, but they were not aware of this particular side effect. By all means make everyone aware, but to be so inflammatory is unnecessary. This forum was so much nicer when you buggered off.

If it has this sort of effect then the grant is very expensive!

frederick · Jul 13, 2021

The dribble bar or trailing shoe will be compulsory rather than splash plate within 5 years might as well use a grant to help.
However this does raise issues with timings and fields.

jimmer · Jul 13, 2021

So being in an NVZ and dickering everywhere on the 1st of March isn't being taken into consideration for a cause

Ducati899 · Jul 13, 2021

Bald Rick said:
Not sure I am grasping why a dribble bar is causing more incidences of TB than a splash plate.

I would have thought the reverse was true due to leaf contamination

Can someone enlighten me?

We switched from splash to dribble and went tb free not long after so I’m confused

Bald Rick · Jul 13, 2021

Ducati899 said:
We switched from splash to dribble and went tb free not long after so I’m confused

I can see that a dribble bar can reduce grazing intervals but that is a management issue not something that should be taken off the grant list.

Still, it’s an interesting thought that certain actions can have unintentional effects elsewhere

pappuller · Jul 13, 2021

Bald Rick said:
I can see that a dribble bar can reduce grazing intervals but that is a management issue not something that should be taken off the grant list.

Still, it’s an interesting thought that certain actions can have unintentional effects elsewhere

Solve a pro8lem and create another

Ducati899 · Jul 13, 2021

Bald Rick said:
I can see that a dribble bar can reduce grazing intervals but that is a management issue not something that should be taken off the grant list.

Still, it’s an interesting thought that certain actions can have unintentional effects elsewhere

I also stopped using slurry contractors and keep it in house now so who knows

sidjon · Jul 13, 2021

Ducati899 said:
I also stopped using slurry contractors and keep it in house now so who knows

I all so stopped eating salad and went tb clear

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

Cowmansam said:
If the cattle have lesions and are shedding on the muck that would indicate a long term problem that’s not been picked up sound like bad testing practice

Or possibly buying cattle in from herds with long standing tb issues.

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

Ducati899 said:
I also stopped using slurry contractors and keep it in house now so who knows

That's can also cause spread.
Mitigated by now grazing land that has been spread .

So acidity of silage can kill tb but acidity of slurry won't?

matthew · Jul 13, 2021

Sid said:
Cattle have been blood tested twice.

Issue becomes that cattle shedding through muck and its mixed and spread evenly through slurry and contaminates pasture.

Shouldn't graze slurry spread on grass for 60 days, whereas silage grass tb should be killed by day 28 due to acid loading in fermentation process.

@matthew will know more I suspect.

Cowmansam said:
Hadn’t realised it would live aslong as two months without a host

Scholsey said:
When you have little black and white slurry tankers trundling around trickling bTb bacteria all over the grazing block surely what you do with slurry is irrelevant?

First of all, @kill I do hope your wife is OK. We don't bounce that easily do we?
The last gate I came into contact with, dislocated my right arm, straight out the back. That wasn't pleasant. The bull we were loading was a pussy cat, compared to that.

The survival of m.bovis in various situations has been explored for decades. It's tough, wears a barbour waterproof jacket and takes some killing. That's where pasteurisation came in, to protect the liquid milk market. So boiling. It is acid safe (so acid silage will not kill it) and can be water bourne too. Dirty troughs of shared drinking water. Dried or partially dried it is doubly lethal. As in badger pee on badly made hay dried in damp cloudy conditions..

Underground in dark, humid conditions, up to two years is recorded. As said, UV light is excellent - two hours at most.

To target cattle slurry and / or its spreading mechanisms, m.bovis has to be in open stomach lesions and then in sufficient quantities to begin the formation of lesions. These are called 'colony forming units', or cfu. If in badger detritis - this is hooching with cfu with up to 300,000 per 1ml found in urine.
Conversally, cattle can be found to have huge lesions, but very little cfus so minimal spread.

It takes just a single cfu to infect a calf, and 76 cfu to make an adult cow a reactor.

Personally, I don't buy the slurry argument - especially if it's found by phage testing. Some bacteria may be there, but unlikely to be in enough cfu to cause a problem. That said, phage testing identified m.bovis bacteria in a badger's injection site, for 301 days after it was vaccinated. Anyone see Woodroffe and the fragrant Mrs. Johnson raise a voice against vaccinating badgers?

betweenthelines · Jul 13, 2021

Sid said:
Heard of two farms locally that have switched from splash plates to dribble bars and are now spreading grazing ground with slurry.

Both of these dribble bars have been bought with grant money and are spreading TB amongst the cattle with stomach lesions coming back at slaughter.

One herd has lost 30% of it herd with stomach lesions.

The action of these grants once again caused a consequence that wasn't considered ?

Do you actually have any evidence for that statement, or are you just spreading a rumour based on your own fertile imagination?

Beef farmer · Jul 13, 2021

We switched from splash to dribble bar and shot all the badgers and went tb free. God damn splash plates.

Fergieman · Jul 13, 2021

We got a dribble bar on the last grant round. We still have the same management protocols regarding slurry applications and grazing as when we had the splash plate. I don't see how the grant application is to blame, I would say its down to the management allowing cattle to graze to soon after applications.

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

betweenthelines said:
Do you actually have any evidence for that statement, or are you just spreading a rumour based on your own fertile imagination?

I've edited it now just for you.

It's thought that it's through the use of a dribble bar.

Others have shown they have found the opposite.
From what I have been told these two had switched to spreading behind the cows on grazing.

Sid · Jul 13, 2021

matthew said:
First of all, @kill I do hope your wife is OK. We don't bounce that easily do we?
The last gate I came into contact with, dislocated my right arm, straight out the back. That wasn't pleasant. The bull we were loading was a pussy cat, compared to that.

The survival of m.bovis in various situations has been explored for decades. It's tough, wears a barbour waterproof jacket and takes some killing. That's where pasteurisation came in, to protect the liquid milk market. So boiling. It is acid safe (so acid silage will not kill it) and can be water bourne too. Dirty troughs of shared drinking water. Dried or partially dried it is doubly lethal. As in badger pee on badly made hay dried in damp cloudy conditions..

Underground in dark, humid conditions, up to two years is recorded. As said, UV light is excellent - two hours at most.

To target cattle slurry and / or its spreading mechanisms, m.bovis has to be in open stomach lesions and then in sufficient quantities to begin the formation of lesions. These are called 'colony forming units', or cfu. If in badger detritis - this is hooching with cfu with up to 300,000 per 1ml found in urine.
Conversally, cattle can be found to have huge lesions, but very little cfus so minimal spread.

It takes just a single cfu to infect a calf, and 76 cfu to make an adult cow a reactor.

Personally, I don't buy the slurry argument - especially if it's found by phage testing. Some bacteria may be there, but unlikely to be in enough cfu to cause a problem. That said, phage testing identified m.bovis bacteria in a badger's injection site, for 301 days after it was vaccinated. Anyone see Woodroffe and the fragrant Mrs. Johnson raise a voice against vaccinating badgers?

Thanks for that.
How does the position of where the lesions are found relate to source of infection?

betweenthelines · Jul 13, 2021

Gee whizz-this thread just sums up the perils of the internet.

In three pages we have gone from a random personal opinion, to some people accepting it as an acknowledged fact.

No wonder people with an agenda to advance love the web.

betweenthelines · Jul 13, 2021

Sid said:
I've edited it now just for you.

It's thought that it's through the use of a dribble bar.

Others have shown they have found the opposite.
From what I have been told these two had switched to spreading behind the cows on grazing.

So absolutely no evidence whatsoever then. More an Old Wives Tale than a considered, reasoned argument.

You've taken two random facts-farmer switches to dribble bar, Tb increases and made an absurd leap to a stupid conclusion. Perhaps there are other factors to consider-is the cowman wearing different wellies, have the farms changed from red to green tractors? Considering the impact that Tb has on farms and farmers, I'd have thought you would think before you type. Or do you just get a kick out of stirring things up?

You really are the worst king of troll aren't you?

TB and dribble bars

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