New information about what Environmental Land Management schemes will pay for

holwellcourtfarm · Jan 27, 2023

An Gof said:
View attachment 1090751

WTF is "improved permanent grassland"

Is it that unicorn of pp that's successfully had herbal content DD'd into it? :scratchhead:

Sid · Jan 27, 2023

Vader said:
Especially as it seems some arable farmers already dont use insecticides.
They change nothing , claim extra cash, grass land farmers dont and can not claim...

Same with GS4
Organic farmers already doing this can't get the payment.

I bet if your Organic arable you can't claim the insecticide payment either!

Sid · Jan 27, 2023

Poncherello1976 said:
As others have said above, @Janet Hughes Defra Could you please explain why PP does not get the no insecticide payment? It does seem that mixed farmers/livestock farms are being penalised for for doing, for years, what you are trying to achieve. PP must be encouraged otherwise some will be lost and converted to arable which defeats the object of what you are trying to achieve. Our PP is only cultivated by worms, has very little machinery traffic on it, and virtually no man made fert and virtually no pesticides.
While in general it does look better than what we have seen previously, it does, however, look overly complicated and designed to keep people in desk jobs compared to the simplicity of the BPS.

Perhaps the fact that animals that graze that pasture may have insecticides applied to them and their manure is spread on the land?

ajd132 · Jan 27, 2023

Vader said:
Especially as it seems some arable farmers already dont use insecticides.
They change nothing , claim extra cash, grass land farmers dont and can not claim...

I agree it’s unfair of grass farmers.

but this is a terrible comparison. We stopped using insecticides because we hoped to build up a more resilient ecology on the farm to help control pests. It came at huge risk, especially when everyone around you is spraying constantly, the pressure in the farming press to spray and 90% of ‘experts’ telling you that you are absolutely mental.
We took a conscious decision, to expose ourselves to massive risk and unknown.

Samcowman · Jan 27, 2023

holwellcourtfarm said:
WTF is "improved permanent grassland"

Is it that unicorn of pp that's successfully had herbal content DD'd into it?

As I understand it PP that has had stuff done to it. Eg fert or harrowing

holwellcourtfarm · Jan 27, 2023

DrWazzock said:
Thank you for pointing that out. But it’s hardly right that grassland is discriminated against in this way. No insecticide use on grassland must surely be as beneficial to insects as no insect use on arable. Why should livestock farmers lose out just because grassland uses less plant protection products by default? They might be considering only compensating for income foregone, but as soon as we sow grassland here we expect “income foregone” but we do it for a range of good sustainability reasons. As a mixed farmer I just lost another incentive to sow grass. Can’t be right.
It’s clear to me the new system is heavily weighted against grass and livestock. I can see a fair but of grass getting ploughed up actually with no incentive to retain it.
Disappointing. But we will carry on regardless. Not sure I’m that interested in the schemes. Reckon most of the cash will be soaked up by advisers or knadger production too greatly.

From a carbon and nitrogen loss perspective (and a biodiversity one if the pasture is well established) this is probably the single most negative outcome possible yet it's the logical economic reason for a farmer to take.

Huge own goal!

holwellcourtfarm · Jan 27, 2023

Samcowman said:
As I understand it PP that has had stuff done to it. Eg fert or harrowing

When? Ever?

All of our PP (real PP, not just 5+ year old ley) had had that done in the past.

Who decides?

I don't trust the RPA or NE to!

aangus · Jan 27, 2023

Hindsight said:
should a lot of permanent pasture be converted to arable on the 2023 BPS form?

I'm just thinking that!!! Who cares what tons/ha, lets grab this free money that defra are promising.

Clive · Jan 27, 2023

Muddyroads said:
You’d better make the most of the good times Clive, it doesn’t look like it will be too long before your feed market greatly reduces and the whole balance of British agriculture will be lost.

you know what ......... everyone told me that in the late 1990's when I left Harper !

Still here !

steveR · Jan 27, 2023

ringi said:
Yes can come out after 5 years, however that does not prevent a NE inspector discovering some wildlife they like and using DIFFERENT regulations to stop you going back to what you did before the scheme. Having wildlife on a farm creates the risk of NE putting restrictions on the farm, being in any of these schemes increases the risk that NE will discover such wildlife.

The options have very different risks levels, eg growing some bird feed on a different part of the farm each year practically have no risks, but creating a wetland habitat is clearly long term.

Yep, annual rotational options are the way forward to protect your land from NE.

aangus · Jan 27, 2023

topground said:
As has been mentioned before the only reason DEFRA has come back with what they claim is an improved offer is because take up of the 2022 offer was so far adrift of their own targets.
Civil Servants told the EFRA select committee that 1000 farmers had signed up for the pilot when in fact that number is now quoted as 840.
DEFRA spouted that SFI applications were being turned around in 2 weeks as though this was a triumph of administration when in fact it meant they had so many staff taken on with little to do.

This scheme will not survive the change in government that will come about at the next general election.
I don’t know how much of the DEFRA 70% target for land under their various schemes is grassland but If no one running livestock enterprises signs up for the scheme they cannot meet that target and will have to rethink in order to spend their budget and meet their targets.

We need to continue to say thanks but no thanks to the current version of the scheme.
Policy makers need to understand if they want to control the management of my land they need to pay for the privilege and leave me with a margin for the stress and aggravation of dealing with the RPA.
The offer of £20 per Ha up to £1000 recognises the aggravation factor but seriously under values my time a feature of much of DEFRA thinking.
I have not included Natural England because no one in their right mind would enter voluntarily into any agreement with NE.

As an all grass farm I find the aggravation outweighs the scant reward on offer so I won’t be signing up.

What about you?

I'm with you 100%. Should we start a petition?

Hindsight · Jan 27, 2023

aangus said:
I'm just thinking that!!! Who cares what tons/ha, lets grab this free money that defra are promising.

DEFRA's inability to put money into the permanent pasture grassland sector is a re run of the Forage Area fiasco when Arable Area Payments was introduced in 1992 under the Macsharry reforms. When 10,000s thousands of acres were denied an area payment. Hey ho.

Samcowman · Jan 27, 2023

holwellcourtfarm said:
When? Ever?

All of our PP (real PP, not just 5+ year old ley) had had that done in the past.

Who decides?

I don't trust the RPA or NE to!

Probably have to go back to the 5 year rule and have to be done in the last 5 years.
yes the RPA have gone down in my estimations in the handling of our stewardship application.

aangus · Jan 27, 2023

Hindsight said:
DEFRA's inability to put money into the permanent pasture grassland sector is a re run of the Forage Area fiasco when Arable Area Payments was introduced in 1992 under the Macsharry reforms. When 10,000s thousands of acres were denied an area payment. Hey ho.

At least with the Macsharry (Irish) reforms you had a man from a country that understood Farming.

ringi · Jan 27, 2023

holwellcourtfarm said:
WTF is "improved permanent grassland"

Is it that unicorn of pp that's successfully had herbal content DD'd into it?

PP that have had lime, any overseeding or fertiliser eg been actively farmed. Eg most enclosed PP other then some moreland. If none of these can be proven then NE have laws they can use to prevent anything being done to the land so much lower level of payments.

andybk · Jan 27, 2023

Muddyroads said:
@Janet Hughes Defra thank you for once again engaging with us. Can you please explain why DEFRA don’t appear to recognise any of the environmental benefits that come with ruminant livestock?

maybe the question you should ask is who has the vegetarian agenda within DEFRA ? @Janet Hughes Defra , before BPS it was always the arable farmers with their snouts in the trough ,see nothing has changed

Ceri · Jan 27, 2023

topground said:
As has been mentioned before the only reason DEFRA has come back with what they claim is an improved offer is because take up of the 2022 offer was so far adrift of their own targets.
Civil Servants told the EFRA select committee that 1000 farmers had signed up for the pilot when in fact that number is now quoted as 840.
DEFRA spouted that SFI applications were being turned around in 2 weeks as though this was a triumph of administration when in fact it meant they had so many staff taken on with little to do.

This scheme will not survive the change in government that will come about at the next general election.
I don’t know how much of the DEFRA 70% target for land under their various schemes is grassland but If no one running livestock enterprises signs up for the scheme they cannot meet that target and will have to rethink in order to spend their budget and meet their targets.

We need to continue to say thanks but no thanks to the current version of the scheme.
Policy makers need to understand if they want to control the management of my land they need to pay for the privilege and leave me with a margin for the stress and aggravation of dealing with the RPA.
The offer of £20 per Ha up to £1000 recognises the aggravation factor but seriously under values my time a feature of much of DEFRA thinking.
I have not included Natural England because no one in their right mind would enter voluntarily into any agreement with NE.

As an all grass farm I find the aggravation outweighs the scant reward on offer so I won’t be signing up.

What about you?

You’ve hit the nail on the head….. I truly hope for the sake of uk ag no one signs up to this absolute garbage or we’ll be shackled for ever.

Clive · Jan 27, 2023

ajd132 said:
I agree it’s unfair of grass farmers.

but this is a terrible comparison. We stopped using insecticides because we hoped to build up a more resilient ecology on the farm to help control pests. It came at huge risk, especially when everyone around you is spraying constantly, the pressure in the farming press to spray and 90% of ‘experts’ telling you that you are absolutely mental.
We took a conscious decision, to expose ourselves to massive risk and unknown.

^^ 100% again

Anyone thinks what we have done here the last 15yrs has been easy, cheap (investment) or without massive risk really doesn't understand combinable crop farming

To summaries this thread so far it look like great news for arable but lacking for livestock / grassland

Maybe new CSS options will reward livestock / grass more with options to maintain and enhance ?

DEFRA have clearly listened to arable and made something that was unattractive and unworkable for most into something that now looks good ......... its clear they are moving in. the right direction so we can hope that given more time they improve the offer for grassland and livestock as well

Keep engaging and working with DEFRA and i reckon they might juts get there for EVERYONE eventuality

Vader · Jan 27, 2023

Vader said:
Management of hedgerows by rotational cutting and leaving some hedgerows uncut CS (BE3) Available in CS; related action in SFI from 2023 Not applicable £10 per 100m for one side of hedge

BE3: Management of hedgerows

Find out about eligibility and requirements for the management of hedgerows option.

www.gov.uk

So 10 quid per side.
So 20 quid if you look after both sides.
So can I leave the sides uncut and just cut the top every year and get 20 quid?

@Janet Hughes Defra

@Janet Hughes Defra
To help explain more..

Top cut sides left.
So berry's on sides, neat top.
3rd of hedge cut..

ajd132 · Jan 27, 2023

Clive said:
^^ 100% again

Anyone thinks what we have done here the last 15yrs has been easy, cheap (investment) or without massive risk really doesn't understand combinable crop farming

To summaries this thread so far it look like great news for arable but lacking for livestock / grassland

Maybe new CSS options will reward livestock / grass more with options to maintain and enhance ?

DEFRA have clearly listened to arable and made something that was unattractive and unworkable for most into something that now looks good ......... its clear they are moving in. the right direction so we can hope that given more time they improve the offer for grassland and livestock as well

Keep engaging and working with DEFRA and i reckon they might juts get there for EVERYONE eventuality

It’s in all our best interest to make sure the livestock guys get a good deal aswell.

New information about what Environmental Land Management schemes will pay for

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