Winter cover crops on heavy land... what a disaster

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Clive said:
erosion, leaching zero habit for wildlife, heavy pesticides and synthetic input use

i think you belong in farming world of 30yr and ago

locals can import their food, its WAY cheaper than i can profitably grow it for

"erosion, leaching zero habit for wildlife, heavy pesticides and synthetic input use"

you 100% sure this isnt whats happening where you import your food from???

"locals can import their food, its WAY cheaper than i can profitably grow it for" = so why is beef and lamb currently so expensive???? because its currently MORE expensive to import andwe have a shortage of domestic supply

Spud · Mar 18, 2024

Humble Village Farmer said:
Unfortunately, ploughing will also cause the biggest loss of om, so much spreading and ploughing is an expensive way of going nowhere.

Thats mostly nonsense.
The easiest way to move less soil is less depth
Losing OM is basically one way traffic - if everything is removed and nothing returned, then degrading occurs

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Humble Village Farmer said:
Unfortunately, ploughing will also cause the biggest loss of om, so much spreading and ploughing is an expensive way of going nowhere.

going nowhere??? i bought land in 99 that was continually cropped and yielding 1.5t an acre sb, ploughed muck in for 15 years and the soils are transformed, ive seen first hand how to farm, lot of people talking without substance on here

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Clive said:
i’m managing biodiversity and providing natural capital / public goods WHILST growing food with less reliance on synthetic inputs - all in a very measurable way

that’s the smart way to “farm” and the most profitable

some common buzzwords there but no substance

FACTS

your growing less food for public

using their money

contributing to an increase in food prices

Hindsight · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
"erosion, leaching zero habit for wildlife, heavy pesticides and synthetic input use"

you 100% sure this isnt whats happening where you import your food from???

"locals can import their food, its WAY cheaper than i can profitably grow it for" = so why is beef and lamb currently so expensive???? because its currently MORE expensive to import andwe have a shortage of domestic supply

Government policy is for the population to consume less Red Meat. Thus creating a shortage and thus raising the price of Beef and Lamb, probably Beef more important actually results in policy objectives being met. Namely should over time reduce consumption as consumers react to the higher price by reducing consumption. Ensures Beef and Lamb farmers are better rewarded and require less subsidy in from of BPS and / or SFI to continue to produce Beef / Lamb. Those Red Meats become more niche high value products. Beef is seen a a cheap meat because of culinary usage of mince in Burgers and many 'sauce' type dishes - eg, Spag Bol, Cottage Pie. Intended replacement is either no Meat or White Meat as poultry.

Clive · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
some common buzzwords there but no substance

FACTS

your growing less food for public

using their money

contributing to an increase in food prices

there is loads of substance, test , trial and metrics ……… FACT

i’m not going to bother debating that with some one so clearly uninformed

as for increased food price - WTF are you complaining about ! food is too cheap, farmers need higher food prices

Salopian_Will · Mar 18, 2024

I have some heavy land cover crops destroyed in Jan/feb. Best benefit I’ve seen is the amount of bird life in them. Enough cover for them to be happy but plenty of space to get in. Lots of woodcock and snipe in particular, which we don’t get in winter cereals.

I wouldn’t put linseed in again. Stuff is going to be a pain to get through a cultivator despite some being dead from the November frosts. Clover seems to be a bast*rd to get established.

Phacelia and vetch with a bit of buckwheat will do me from here on in I think. I would use spring oats from a neighbour’s pile too but am too afraid of weed
Contamination.

Mixedupfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Hindsight said:
Government policy is for the population to consume less Red Meat. Thus creating a shortage and thus raising the price of Beef and Lamb, probably Beef more important actually results in policy objectives being met. Namely should over time reduce consumption as consumers react to the higher price by reducing consumption. Ensures Beef and Lamb farmers are better rewarded and require less subsidy in from of BPS and / or SFI to continue to produce Beef / Lamb. Those Red Meats become more niche high value products. Beef is seen a a cheap meat because of culinary usage of mince in Burgers and many 'sauce' type dishes - eg, Spag Bol, Cottage Pie. Intended replacement is either no Meat or White Meat as poultry.

Do you think gov policy is working? All the steak and burger outlets around here seem very busy. Dropped in for a burger at Maconalds sat evening and they had run out of burgers, plenty of chicken and vegan though. Supermarkets reduced isle mostly vegan. I think the public is fed up of all the vegan/ anti red meat proaganda

warksfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Wigeon said:
I farm heavy silty clay with flints. No ditches, no land drains. Good strong wheat land, if unforgiving.

I've been trying to grow cover crops on and off for the last 9 yrs. With one exception, they have all been disastrous.

Summer cover crops in place of a spring crop, on the other hand, can be brilliant, and this yrs wheat following one looks excellent.

Anyway, this yr I thought right, let's keep it simple. Spring linseed seed direct drilled straight behind the combine. Grew well. Nothing better for soil conditioning, generally the dryest stubbles etc. Flailed off in January frosts.

i sprayed off grass weeds underneath it yesterday, and my goodness was it sad. Water standing everywhere. Could barely travel.

I'm very tempted never to grow one again. I will certainly be drilling the worked ground first, as in weeks earlier at this rate.

Has anyone actually really cracked it, on difficult soils? As in it actually makes a positive difference to the following crop. There's a whole load of chat, but I'd be really interested to know, because otherwise I'm very tempted to conclude that it's all a complete and utter waste of time.

Any experiences welcome!

For what its worth having got the t-shirt I would not cultivate because if it comes dry you will of lost all that soil moisture through the cultivation. Spring crops can dry out so I would try and slot in your seeds into the stubble when you can travel. I would say retaining the moisture is more important than drilling date.

Brisel · Mar 18, 2024

Wigeon said:
I farm heavy silty clay with flints. No ditches, no land drains. Good strong wheat land, if unforgiving.

I've been trying to grow cover crops on and off for the last 9 yrs. With one exception, they have all been disastrous.

Summer cover crops in place of a spring crop, on the other hand, can be brilliant, and this yrs wheat following one looks excellent.

Anyway, this yr I thought right, let's keep it simple. Spring linseed seed direct drilled straight behind the combine. Grew well. Nothing better for soil conditioning, generally the dryest stubbles etc. Flailed off in January frosts.

i sprayed off grass weeds underneath it yesterday, and my goodness was it sad. Water standing everywhere. Could barely travel.

I'm very tempted never to grow one again. I will certainly be drilling the worked ground first, as in weeks earlier at this rate.

Has anyone actually really cracked it, on difficult soils? As in it actually makes a positive difference to the following crop. There's a whole load of chat, but I'd be really interested to know, because otherwise I'm very tempted to conclude that it's all a complete and utter waste of time.

Any experiences welcome!

What drills do you have?

I have a reasonably large part of my farm in SW6 cover crops. On the heavier soils I cut the seed rates of CC and use a Mzuri strip till drill with the rear harrow only lightly touching the ridges left by the tines. I ran the drill as fast as possible to disturb as much topsoil as possible as well as being short on time. No rolling to leave the surface as open as possible. The result is a low biomass cover crop and a magnificent flush of grass weeds and a weathered finish. Spray off in early spring and use the strip drill to establish a spring crop of barley, oats or beans. I'll get some pictures later. I haven't been able to spray it off yet as it is still too wet to travel!

Are undisturbed stubbles (AB2) any better? Not really. It travels better but is dead underneath with less worm activity. I'll see what the spring crop yield is vs the thin CC and report back later in the year. It's the first time we've done cover crops in the CS scheme so don't have the experience on this soil type on this farm.

ajd132 · Mar 18, 2024

Brisel said:
What drills do you have?

I have a reasonably large part of my farm in SW6 cover crops. On the heavier soils I cut the seed rates of CC and use a Mzuri strip till drill with the rear harrow only lightly touching the ridges left by the tines. I ran the drill as fast as possible to disturb as much topsoil as possible as well as being short on time. No rolling to leave the surface as open as possible. The result is a low biomass cover crop and a magnificent flush of grass weeds and a weathered finish. Spray off in early spring and use the strip drill to establish a spring crop of barley, oats or beans. I'll get some pictures later. I haven't been able to spray it off yet as it is still too wet to travel!

Are undisturbed stubbles (AB2) any better? Not really. It travels better but is dead underneath with less worm activity. I'll see what the spring crop yield is vs the thin CC and report back later in the year. It's the first time we've done cover crops in the CS scheme so don't have the experience on this soil type on this farm.

I have a Claydon now so am planning to do similar for some of the cover crops

Hindsight · Mar 18, 2024

Mixedupfarmer said:
Do you think gov policy is working? All the steak and burger outlets around here seem very busy. Dropped in for a burger at Maconalds sat evening and they had run out of burgers, plenty of chicken and vegan though. Supermarkets reduced isle mostly vegan. I think the public is fed up of all the vegan/ anti red meat proaganda

Hi Mixedupfarmer,

I don't know. Like you I see every McDonalds I pass busy most times of day, evening and night! But as I visited a MaccieD for the first time in a decade last November late on after seeing a band and I couldn't find a Kebab shop and not been in since I have no idea what folk eat in them. All I can qoute is references. Which you could Google as well. But the 'official' data seems to indicate declining consumption of Red Meat and a rise in Poultry with that flattening out. Some links below for your amusement. Cheers. A bit off topic now, so will stop.

Per capita meat consumption in the UK by type 2022 | Statista

The United Kingdom has experienced a shift in meat consumption since 2007.

www.statista.com

Trends in UK meat consumption: analysis of data from years 1–11 (2008–09 to 2018–19) of the National Diet and Nutrition Survey rolling programme

Despite the overall reduction in meat intake, reaching meat-consumption targets that align with sustainable diets will require a substantial acceleration of this trend.

www.thelancet.com

UK meat consumption at lowest level since records began, data reveals

Average of 854g a week eaten at home in 2022, with the 14% decline since 2012 driven by cost of living crisis and lifestyle changes

www.theguardian.com

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Clive said:
there is loads of substance, test , trial and metrics ……… FACT

i’m not going to bother debating that with some one so clearly uninformed

as for increased food price - WTF are you complaining about ! food is too cheap, farmers need higher food prices

speaking of uninformed you personally admitted you know absolutely nothing of the beef and sheep industry, now given the fact that BPS removal has the most effect on these sectors you dont seem well placed to make any comment on BPS removal so stop pushing your uninformed views onto others

im not im enjoying it, its you that wants the taxpayer to get a good deal is it not?

Clive · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
speaking of uninformed you personally admitted you know absolutely nothing of the beef and sheep industry, now given the fact that BPS removal has the most effect on these sectors you dont seem well placed to make any comment on BPS removal so stop pushing your uninformed views onto others

im not im enjoying it, its you that wants the taxpayer to get a good deal is it not?

I have no view on the beef and sheep industry - as I say I know nothing much about it

I do know a LOT about BPS however and it WAS possibly the most morally corrupt use of tax payers cash ever conceived by any government, pointless discussing it though because its no more than history now anyway

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Mixedupfarmer said:
Do you think gov policy is working? All the steak and burger outlets around here seem very busy. Dropped in for a burger at Maconalds sat evening and they had run out of burgers, plenty of chicken and vegan though. Supermarkets reduced isle mostly vegan. I think the public is fed up of all the vegan/ anti red meat proaganda

an uninformed poster on here @Clive told me last month there were no beef shortage in the UK and burger prices in macdonalds were the same as always

As for McDonald's, it also hiked prices last month on its bacon double cheeseburger from £2.49 to £2.69 (up 8 per cent); triple cheeseburger from £2.69 to £2.89 (up 7 per cent)

Fast-food giant McDonald's has raised the price of its cheeseburgers by 20% in the UK — its first such price hike in the country for 14 years.

McDonald's warned of "frequent price increases" in its earnings call on Tuesday and said that it had raised prices by close to 10% over the past year

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Clive said:
I have no view on the beef and sheep industry - as I say I know nothing much about it

I do know a LOT about BPS however and it WAS possibly the most morally corrupt use of tax payers cash ever conceived by any government, pointless discussing it though because its no more than history now anyway

and what sectors rely on bps?..........the ones you know nothing about...........

Clive · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
an uninformed poster on here @Clive told me last month there were no beef shortage in the UK and burger prices in macdonalds were the same as always

As for McDonald's, it also hiked prices last month on its bacon double cheeseburger from £2.49 to £2.69 (up 8 per cent); triple cheeseburger from £2.69 to £2.89 (up 7 per cent)

Fast-food giant McDonald's has raised the price of its cheeseburgers by 20% in the UK — its first such price hike in the country for 14 years.

McDonald's warned of "frequent price increases" in its earnings call on Tuesday and said that it had raised prices by close to 10% over the past year

there is no beef shortage - all the supermarket around me have plenty and McDonalds definitely hasn't sold out

Higher prices =. GREAT NEWS .............. now go make some money !

Clive · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
and what sectors rely on bps?..........the ones you know nothing about...........

none - because its history now !

how about you rely on the HIGHER prices you seem to think are a problem ?

Bossfarmer · Mar 18, 2024

Clive said:
none - because its history now !

how about you rely on the HIGHER prices you seem to think are a problem ?

im enjoying the higher prices AND full bps thanks actually, as you guys down south phasing out bps along with tree planting up here are creating a shortage

i thought we were discussing value to taxpayer of bps though? like it or not, argue all you want but the evidence is proving that BPS has been propping up our domestic food supply(and affordable food to your taxpayer), which will now dwindle

i find it IMMORAL to have land capable of producing food being paid to sit doing nothing while we import from around the world, you CANNOT defend this

Humble Village Farmer · Mar 18, 2024

Bossfarmer said:
i find it IMMORAL to have land capable of producing food being paid to sit doing nothing while we import from around the world, you CANNOT defend this

Its happening now anyway and been happening for quite a while.

Humans aren't the only species.

Winter cover crops on heavy land... what a disaster

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