Agrii and DD\CC

[jimcooke770]

We have been moving gradually to reduced/no till but reading the article on page 91 of Direct Driller Issue 12 , and after watching the excellent Agrii Stow Longa Results Webinar I'm wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree .
6 years of trials have shown "the metal treatments show an average annual advantage of over £125/ ha over the roots ". This includes cultivation costs .
I know this might be seen as sacrilege in some quarters , but I'm not sure I can afford £50 an acre off my bottom line .

 

[Bax]

Do your own trials on your own farm if you are unsure of your tillage system.

 

[SilliamWhale]

We have been moving gradually to reduced/no till but reading the article on page 91 of Direct Driller Issue 12 , and after watching the excellent Agrii Stow Longa Results Webinar I'm wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree .
6 years of trials have shown "the metal treatments show an average annual advantage of over £125/ ha over the roots ". This includes cultivation costs .
I know this might be seen as sacrilege in some quarters , but I'm not sure I can afford £50 an acre off my bottom line .

How good was their establishment of DD crops etc? Get it right and there shouldnt really be any yield difference by and large.

 

[jimcooke770]

Do your own trials on your own farm if you are unsure of your tillage system.

We do . Best spring crops consistently come from early autumn ploughing to control BG . Jurys still out on cover crops , except spring barley which shows a slight yeild drop . Hence my interest in some hard data rather than "soil health ".

 

[alomy75]

With my farmer hat on; I get the theory behind cover crops. With my Agronomist hat on; I don’t dare touch them. Too many potential rotational clashes with beans and osr; not to mention potentially introducing another weed to the farm. So I’m playing with just leaving natural growth to grow a little bit more; it’s free, it’s green cover and would have been there anyway. Clearly you have to spray it before it sets seed. I saw that webinar too and agree it’s concerning as I’m just starting to DD also in readiness for ELMS...I won’t be getting rid of the cultivators just yet but I’m pretty sure, on my land, it will be a case of DD if everything is with you but till if it’s clear you need to (mostly as I’m still, unfortunately, tied into a beet contract).

 

[ajd132]

usually the management on no till/cover crops in these trials is absolutely shocking

 

[yellow belly]

The problem with trial comparing notill with tillage is that notill land changes the more years from tillage
and you need to manage the crop in the year it is grown not in advance as a trial protocol

with my cover crop of oats after barley the last 4 years each has been totally different
2017 established well with early growth delayed spring planting due to wet spell
2018 very fast early growth knee high by Christmas dry April then wet May
2019. Not a lot of growth till January when it stopped raining dry April spring planting perfect but needed to roll
2020. So many barley volunteers the oats struggle to compete

the more years I do it the easier it becomes but you have to read the soil condition on the day

 

[clbarclay]

6 years is fairly short term in agriculture. I doubt that intensive cultivation would have become mainstream in the first place if it didn't seem to work well in the short term at least compared to alternatives.

One of the main arguments against it is the longer term side effects and whether they are worth the short term profits.

 

[britt]

I haven't seen the Stow Longa trial information, but most trials seem to insist on everything, other than tillage or not, being the same.
Notill crops need to be managed differently. Wheat needs its first N earlier, for instance and a higher seed rate on my soils to make up for poorer tillering due to no N release from cultivations.
You really need to look very closely at all of their details.
The condition of their soil at the start point has the biggest influence.

 

[deleted user 837354]

£125 a hectare isn't actually that much money if you tote up the cost of tillage. There are some big savings to had from direct drilling as many people on this forum will attest to.

 

[PSQ]

£125 a hectare isn't actually that much money if you tote up the cost of tillage. There are some big savings to had from direct drilling as many people on this forum will attest to.

No, £125 a Ha difference in profitability, in a professionally conducted long term trial, is a hell of a lot.

Re-read the op:

We have been moving gradually to reduced/no till but reading the article on page 91 of Direct Driller Issue 12 , and after watching the excellent Agrii Stow Longa Results Webinar I'm wondering if we're barking up the wrong tree .
6 years of trials have shown "the metal treatments show an average annual advantage of over £125/ ha over the roots ". This includes cultivation costs.
I know this might be seen as sacrilege in some quarters , but I'm not sure I can afford £50 an acre off my bottom line .

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

I think the biggest question mark over the trial results is the people conducting the research.

The supply industry are struggling to keep up with the changes being brought about by conservation ag. and are rightly concerned about the reduction in farmers' spendings. Most recommendations lead to problems requiring another recommendation and so on. The further the system gets from natural processes, the more treatments are "needed". Try seed treated with insecticides eaten by slugs which then poison the predator beetles for a start. Cultivations destroying earthworm populations and mycorrhizal fungi leading to higher fertiliser requirements is another one.

Don't expect cover crops to "work", they are part of a system to get more carbon and life into the soil. It won't happen overnight and requires patience and determination. So far for us it's been worthwhile, despite the last few wet winters and dry summers. Although I certainly wouldn't say we have cracked it, our reduced spend has helped.

 

[Brisel]

Are Stow Longa just saying what they have seen in small trial plot results, or are they being guided by the Agrii machine that fears lower input DD systems? Trial plots will have had a lot of traffic & I doubt many will be multi year plots. Year 1 for many is not always the payback. The benefits take much longer to come through.

A little bit of extra yield, especially in a high price year, pays for a lot of steel. That's the hamster wheel that is hard to step off for most people who are curious about Conservation Agriculture IMHO.

 

[jimcooke770]

The DD/CC plots have been in the system for 6 years . I'm not promoting anything that Agrii do , just trying to put the question out there and stimulate a bit of debate .

 

[Clive]

shock horror ! business that makes its money supplying inputs finds lower input system to be inferior

who would have thought it

do your own trials , make up
your own mind

 

[jimcooke770]

see my second post . and first .
I thought I might offend " the True Believers "

 

[Clive]

see my second post . and first .
I thought I might offend " the True Believers "

it doesn't offended and they may well be right


all I'm saying is step one in any information/trials is to look to see if there may be agenda to it (this works both ways ! )


Its not about belief for me, I've been doing it too long to need to believe anything, its about reality here now

 

[Andy26]

Are Stow Longa just saying what they have seen in small trial plot results, or are they being guided by the Agrii machine that fears lower input DD systems? Trial plots will have had a lot of traffic & I doubt many will be multi year plots. Year 1 for many is not always the payback. The benefits take much longer to come through.

A little bit of extra yield, especially in a high price year, pays for a lot of steel. That's the hamster wheel that is hard to step off for most people who are curious about Conservation Agriculture IMHO.

To be fair at the Stow Longa site they have large plots which have been in rotation (or not) to demonstrate it on a farm scale. IIRC in some plots the problem weed had moved on from black-grass to Bromes. Although even ploughs have started growing in some plots:

Not sure Steve will thank me for that photo!

 

[alomy75]

To be fair to the big Agronomy companies; they have to protect their reputation and looking forward they know that to remain viable they need to evolve their advice with the changing landscape in Agriculture. It would be very short sighted of them to have a hidden agenda hoping to sell more products from an ever-decreasing list. The costs involved in running multi-year trials like these would be quite astronomical; I hope they continue to run them and we might see some more results that are more in keeping with what we would expect but it would be unfair to blame them for trying to get some knowledge transfer back out to growers from the early days.

 

[Shropshire Farmer]

They are living in fear for the future of their business model. Lots of data showing no loss of yield from using less n combined with bio stimulants. Reduced fungicide and insecticide from reduced n and increased soil biology. N is a drug which means the plant needs a cure of another drug fungicide. Vicious circle. Lower disturbance also reduces need for herbicide. It’s no surprise that the soil becomes more healthy and robust and the beneficial organisms increase.