Alarming aspirations from latest climate report...

[GeorgeK]

They haven’t got a clue.
Wheat yields increased 220 to 300 times the global average of 3.2t/ha by moving to vertical production ?

If we’re allowed to follow their ‘man maths’ bullpoo ideas, that would be a yield of 700 to 960 t/ha (average 830t/ha).
Even at the world record yield of 17t/ha, if you divide one by the other you reach the conclusion that for an annual wheat crop the vertical farm would need to be 49 stories high.
For a biannual crop still at WR yield, 25 stories high.
How much concrete, glass, copper and steel and AND CO2 would be required to manufacture Chris Starks ‘Towers of Babylon’, never mind the CO2 released to generate the light and heat energy to keep them going? LED’s are efficient, but they don’t power themselves.

Ive skipped through this thread because the arrogance of the CCC pisses me off. But if this is what the CCC *IS* correct, then Chris Stark should resign over his continued demands for the impossible, and slander against an entire industry.

Yes it's rubbish. The experts admit these new food production methods will take huge amounts of electricity, but say it will all be from renewables so it doesn't matter. However surely conventional farming will also have access to this virtually free and 100% renewable electricity? Before long nitrogen fertiliser will no longer require fossil fuels for manufacture, machinery will be electric so no emissions, drones and breeding advancements will increase yields and eliminate the need for chemicals.
These reports are a joke because they don't compare like with like. They compare future methods of food production using future technologies with current farming practices using current technology. They don't allude to the fact that conventional farming will also progress rapidly as time goes by, probably eclipsing the theoretical benefits of these new methods

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

hang on a minute....get back to the start line.
Aren't these figures working on the assumption that methane is a worse GHG than carbon?

I'd focus on challenging that, because without it as a bedrock sin of the beef industry, they start to look a bit silly.

As an aside....
There's 2 properties at the end of our lane, and between them, the couriers delivering parcels seem to be using more fossil fuel than our entire operation. Think on that.

The CCC is misguided anyway. And if it's still steered by Gummer - Lord Deben- go look at his interests.
He has a company which will help you adapt to meet the changes he is demanding.
He personally stands to gain financially from the CCC direction of travel.
It's nepotism of the highest order.

Also on the board -or was last I looked- a bigwig at Drax, which is burning woodchip dragged thousands of miles through the ocean burning eff knows how much low grade oil all the way.

Sorry, this is an unnecessary personal attack on someone who holds a different view to you and it devalues your argument. Gummer will be dead one day but the discussion about carbon and climate change won't be. Personally, I think he cares, is probably not in this to make money and wants to make a contribution towards a better future.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

And how will these crops be nutritionally? Sure, they could provide lots of starch (and we're finding out how wonderful that is for the human body at last), but what about the vitamins and minerals we get from naturally grown food which comes up from the soil? There'll be none of that from these vertical shrines. We already know how vegetables grown in these greenhouses across the world are mainly water these days, severely lacking in nutrition and flavour compared with decades ago. Multiply this by 10 or 100.

something I have read, which is not totally un related to your post. We have anecdotal evidence that working in the garden improves mental health, I thought this was due to some sort of soothing to the soul (from being out in nature), however I read an article that said there are bacteria in the soil, that interact/alter our micro biome, this in turn affects our mental health. I think, there is far more in human health, than just hydroponic produced carbs, protein and fats, very interesting talk by Dan Kitterage (in Groundswell) talking about nutrient density of food and how it interacts with human health. I think the hubris of human's (especially vegan type experts) is beyond belief and may well be our downfall. What I am trying to say, is food produced from a functioning natural environment is good for the planet and our health too (and the converse is also true).

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

something I have read, which is not totally un related to your post. We have anecdotal evidence that working in the garden improves mental health, I thought this was due to some sort of soothing to the soul (from being out in nature), however I read an article that said there are bacteria in the soil, that interact/alter our micro biome, this in turn affects our mental health. I think, there is far more in human health, than just hydroponic produced carbs, protein and fats, very interesting talk by Dan Kitterage (in Groundswell) talking about nutrient density of food and how it interacts with human health. I think the hubris of human's (especially vegan type experts) is beyond belief and may well be our downfall. What I am trying to say, is food produced from a functioning natural environment is good for the planet and our health too (and the converse is also true).

Apparently being in the presence of plants has a similar effect

 

[egbert]

Sorry, this is an unnecessary personal attack on someone who holds a different view to you and it devalues your argument. Gummer will be dead one day but the discussion about carbon and climate change won't be. Personally, I think he cares, is probably not in this to make money and wants to make a contribution towards a better future.

Really?
As far as I'm concerned, if you head up such a body, with such a personal vested interest, you're pretty much begging for a bit of interst.

And if you really want to see what a personal attack could be....
Lets start with his puerile 'publicly feeding his kids some burgers during mad cow sh1tstorm'...that was him wasn't it? Presides over a department allowing cake mills to sell us half cooked cow brains in cattle feed, which damn near destroys our industry...then pretends everything is fine.
His current hypocrisy is pathetic, given what's at stake, and who he's allowing to be attacked as a smokescreen.
Remember, he is- by default -endorsing the suggestion that the lambs I gather off the hill are contributing to GHG.
Looking at his business interests as declared, I suspect his business acumen isn't world class blue chip, but don't know enough to say.
He's certainly hardly covered himself in glory along the way, and as you say, will be dead, gone- and but for the above mentioned TV images- forgotten soon enough.

kick me, expect to be kicked right back.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

What medium are they growing these 830t crops in? Is it going to be synthetic and artificial, or are the CCC proposing that they strip the topsoil from arable land and grow crops in a ‘natural’ medium?
So many unanswered questions to these deluded ‘wannabe’ environmentalists wet dreams...

They aren't basically.

 

[delilah]

Have just emailed Joseph Poore, pointing him to this thread and asking him to comment on the calculations made.

 

[delilah]

For those who don't know - and I didn't until this thread - this is Joseph Poore. Advisor to the CCC.

 

[holwellcourtfarm]

For those who don't know - and I didn't until this thread - this is Joseph Poore. Advisor to the CCC.

Virtually all of the EAT-Lancet research team are vegan or vegetarian, several with backgrounds in campaigning against meat which they did not declare in the published study.

They've also issued a correction to the paper following other scientists pointing out their inconsistent approach to assessing the climate impact of differing classes of food but it's always the original report quoted in the mainstream press here, not the corrections.

 

[delilah]

Virtually all of the EAT-Lancet research team are vegan or vegetarian, several with backgrounds in campaigning against meat which they did not declare in the published study.

They've also issued a correction to the paper following other scientists pointing out their inconsistent approach to assessing the climate impact of differing classes of food but it's always the original report quoted in the mainstream press here, not the corrections.

Have forwarded the request for comment on the figures to his colleague Thomas Nemecek. Hopefully one if not both of them will reply. We must have it wrong, they need to tell us where we went awry.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

Really?
As far as I'm concerned, if you head up such a body, with such a personal vested interest, you're pretty much begging for a bit of interst.

And if you really want to see what a personal attack could be....
Lets start with his puerile 'publicly feeding his kids some burgers during mad cow sh1tstorm'...that was him wasn't it? Presides over a department allowing cake mills to sell us half cooked cow brains in cattle feed, which damn near destroys our industry...then pretends everything is fine.
His current hypocrisy is pathetic, given what's at stake, and who he's allowing to be attacked as a smokescreen.
Remember, he is- by default -endorsing the suggestion that the lambs I gather off the hill are contributing to GHG.
Looking at his business interests as declared, I suspect his business acumen isn't world class blue chip, but don't know enough to say.
He's certainly hardly covered himself in glory along the way, and as you say, will be dead, gone- and but for the above mentioned TV images- forgotten soon enough.

kick me, expect to be kicked right back.

Maybe but I still think you are playing the man and not the ball.

As I recall, he was "presiding" as you say, over slaughterhouses, feed mills, sales reps, farmers processors (again) retailers and consumers, all complicit in the process of feeding cows' brains to cows. "We didn't know" means none of the above bothered to find out what was going on until it was too late.

I don't believe grazing animals contribute to GHG. Farmers do a bit though. For instance, how much N fertiliser gets applied to grassland and how much imported maize, soya and palm kernel is fed to those grazing animals, creating incentives for further deforestation in the tropics.

I don't see this as public blames farmers (which they do), but public endorses farming methods by consuming foodstuffs produced in ways that are criticised in the media; oh, and at the lowest possible price, which ensures only the least sustainable methods of production can compete in the marketplace. The whole supply chain is implicated.

 

[egbert]

Maybe but I still think you are playing the man and not the ball.

As I recall, he was "presiding" as you say, over slaughterhouses, feed mills, sales reps, farmers processors (again) retailers and consumers, all complicit in the process of feeding cows' brains to cows. "We didn't know" means none of the above bothered to find out what was going on until it was too late.

I don't believe grazing animals contribute to GHG. Farmers do a bit though. For instance, how much N fertiliser gets applied to grassland and how much imported maize, soya and palm kernel is fed to those grazing animals, creating incentives for further deforestation in the tropics.

I don't see this as public blames farmers (which they do), but public endorses farming methods by consuming foodstuffs produced in ways that are criticised in the media; oh, and at the lowest possible price, which ensures only the least sustainable methods of production can compete in the marketplace. The whole supply chain is implicated.

It's true that the whole supply chain is implicated- I burnt some diesel today, shuttling bales about etc-, but then, so is pretty much every aspect of modern life.
When the CCC, or anyone else, points that out, they can expect me to talk to them about my cows burping.
But seeing as they want to divert attention - and seemingly line their own pockets- I don't see why I should view them as anything less than contemptuous., and lobby carefully against their bollix.
I've no idea why any UK farmer would regard them as less than hostile.


Mad cow nuts?
I had left the mainstream cake blenders before it ever came to light, when my supplier couldn't answer straight questions about what was in the cake.
(not that I was feeding more than 2-3 tonnes a year)
Went to MVF, who disclosed all ingredients...which didn't include half cooked cow brains.

 

[DaveGrohl]

For those who don't know - and I didn't until this thread - this is Joseph Poore. Advisor to the CCC.

OMG I tried listening to that and was giggling through the first half. Then he said reducing livestock would reduce the UK's emissions by a quarter. I couldn't take any more after that. Idiot. And these people are hugely influential.

 

[delilah]

Then he said reducing livestock would reduce the UK's emissions by a quarter. I couldn't take any more after that. Idiot

I know. 25% ffs. As @Swarfmonkey showed when he number crunched Prof Poore's very own data, it is quite clearly 40%. Like you say, idiot.
.

 

[Humble Village Farmer]

These are dramatic figures. Can't help but be suspicious. We use no inputs on our grassland (except seed). Carbon in that soil is increasing, that seems totally ignored.

Most wheat in conventional systems uses 100 litres of diesel per ha just to grow it. That would be similar for soya and maize in the Amazon. Add the carbon cost of inputs and soil loss from cultivations and grazing animals start to compare favourably, especially when you think that a lot of that maize and soya is going to China to feed (high welfare?) pigs anyway.

I'm sure we could all improve what we are doing. Importing all our food from production systems we know nothing about is no solution.

As I say, it would be interesting to see his figures.

 

[Rob Garrett]

Maybe but I still think you are playing the man and not the ball.

As I recall, he was "presiding" as you say, over slaughterhouses, feed mills, sales reps, farmers processors (again) retailers and consumers, all complicit in the process of feeding cows' brains to cows. "We didn't know" means none of the above bothered to find out what was going on until it was too late.

I don't believe grazing animals contribute to GHG. Farmers do a bit though. For instance, how much N fertiliser gets applied to grassland and how much imported maize, soya and palm kernel is fed to those grazing animals, creating incentives for further deforestation in the tropics.

I don't see this as public blames farmers (which they do), but public endorses farming methods by consuming foodstuffs produced in ways that are criticised in the media; oh, and at the lowest possible price, which ensures only the least sustainable methods of production can compete in the marketplace. The whole supply chain is implicated.

Top post [emoji106]
Great to be having these discussions, but what/where is our (UK Farming) clear concise counter argument?

We are rightly putting up a fight on their terms, their misconceived points of debate. Surly we need to be shouting them down with all the positive farmers do for the environment. They want to change the farmed landscape/ecosystem, so what happens to all the wildlife that depends on it? They will decline, brown hares, lapwings, buzzards, owls, etc. etc.

 

[egbert]

Top post [emoji106]
Great to be having these discussions, but what/where is our (UK Farming) clear concise counter argument?

We are rightly putting up a fight on their terms, their misconceived points of debate. Surly we need to be shouting them down with all the positive farmers do for the environment. They want to change the farmed landscape/ecosystem, so what happens to all the wildlife that depends on it? They will decline, brown hares, lapwings, buzzards, owls, etc. etc.

Perhaps it's through this kind of medium that some of us learn, or at least pointed in the right direction to find out.
There will be people on this forum who do go on and use what they've come to grasp.
Whether the NFU will take it up is another matter

 

[The Seeker]

What gets me is that the 2 months to Christmas we are told to consume consume subsume food plastic anything really then the 2 months after we are shamed of it by the same people. Watching the adds for beef or ham before Christmas is brill come January it’s all our fault

 

[Rob Garrett]

Perhaps it's through this kind of medium that some of us learn, or at least pointed in the right direction to find out.
There will be people on this forum who do go on and use what they've come to grasp.
Whether the NFU will take it up is another matter

Your right & thank you for posting, positive & hopeful [emoji106]

Feels like "preaching to the converted" discussing on TFF, wish I had the skills, time, energy & patients to discuss on vegan forums.

 

[egbert]

Your right & thank you for posting, positive & hopeful [emoji106]

Feels like "preaching to the converted" discussing on TFF, wish I had the skills, time, energy & patients to discuss on vegan forums.

I don't have the fortitude or energy for vegan forums. I mainly use the MSM as it's known.