Alcohol

[melted welly]

I’m not sure if this is the right part of forum to post, or even if it’s really the right forum, but I think it’s a problem that many have experience of, either directly or indirectly, and the depth of knowledge/life experience on TFF rarely lets you down.

We have a relation who is an alcoholic. He won’t admit it. Has been staying with various family members over the past 5 months as he currently has no fixed abode since becoming a widower. Any cash he had seems to have been spunked up the wall on wine and maintaining an image of an affluent businessman (nice meals out, good wine, he booked into a fecking pub for 2 weeks after his wife passed).

Each of the relatives he’s stayed with have helped him with different aspects of his struggles, this wasn’t planned, but rather happened naturally. When he was here, the focus was on his admin, which he just wasn’t doing and had numerous parking fines/unpaid bills/general life admin all stacking up. He left with some resolved and action points on others. We didn’t really address the drinking as we perhaps should have, but he was still grieving the loss of his wife, so it was all a bit softly softly and anyway it was just a bit of nice wine, from a nice bottle drank in a nice glass, all very acceptable isn’t it?… Another family member focussed on his finances and his sister then hit the drinking head on over the past 6 weeks and she seemed to have gotten through.

He seemed to be turning a corner, although I/we were quite skeptical at his claims to have given up drinking completely (“just a couple of pints a week”). But anyway, that’s what he said. He returned to the town where he previously lived yesterday to see his doctor and catch up with some family. Phone-call last night from a relative to say that they’d called him at 6pm and he was totally incoherent, pee'd as a fart, been on the booze hard since lunchtime. He’d gone and booked back into the pub/restaurant where he’d previously stayed and got straight back on the drink. Presumably spending the cash accumulated whilst staying with family.

Now that’s his choice, he’s 70, he’s his own man. However, this has hit a less skeptical relative quite hard given the effort, time and resources that have been swallowed up helping over the past months. My wife is the same, feelings of betrayal, lack of trust, disappointment, anger, helplessness for the situation. And these feelings have an impact far beyond the actions of the individual involved, impacting indirectly on the home lives and to an extent the working lives of others.

My knee jerk reaction is one of anger, and I feel that the softly softly support hasn’t worked. He’s like a teenager sneaking about with bottles of hooch, or a 5yr old stealing biscuits. I want to bollock him severely about this, it feels like nothing else will get through this fug of booze, he’s too arrogant to admit the problem, won’t listen to his children/sister so is a brutal shouting from an indirect relation going to have any effect? I dunno, quite possibly have a negative effect but I don’t think it could make things worse. But that’s where we are, feeling of desperation, silly ideas discussed like spiking his wine with laxatives. We know people who have had hypnotherapy to help quite smoking, but he’s not interested in even having that conversation, it’s like wine/alcohol is the only thing left to him that matters.

I don’t like the term stakeholders, but alcoholism isn’t all about the alcoholic, it perhaps impacts the other (emotional) stakeholders more as they are coherent and aware of the repercussions/long term effects over which they have absolutely no control, yet expend vast amounts of physical and emotion effort trying to address.

So there’s two choices:

1. Keep trying, but ultimately watch a loved one destroy their mind, body and future, despite/in spite of the best efforts of all involved.

2. A lot easier said than done, and I don’t think realistic - Just walk away, leave him to it and await the inevitable call.

Is there an option 3 and 4??

What to do??

 

[Steevo]

Your relative has to want to change for anything to work. Nothing you do will help unless they can help themselves. You can be of huge support to them if they are willing and able to do the work, but sadly you cannot do that work for them.

The fact you are posting on here asking for help and advice shows you care greatly about their welfare.

Addictions are less about the substance and more about numbing/escaping and using it as a crutch to help them cope with emotions they are unable to process.

You can point them to alcoholics anonymous, suggest they see a counsellor to work on and process the emotions underneath it but ultimately it's up to them.


I would suggest trying to hold your own (or anyone elses) emotions as much as possible and try not to take it out on them. They won't respond well and it certainly won't help the situation. I'm sure they are feeling a lot of shame, failure and judgement of themselves already and more of those feelings will drive them deeper still.

Have patience and empathy if you can.
Don't expect too much or set your own judgements/goals for them. They have to work at the pace that they are able to.
Don't enable them.

It's worth seeking help and support for yourselves - addictions are very much about the "system" rather than just the individual. Friends and family get roped in thinking they are helping in the best way they know how but often they can end up part of the problem as much as part of the solution.

 

[M-J-G]

I have only experienced one person who was an alcoholic.

From what I have picked up it's a case of, once an addict always an addict, it's a genreal weakness of character.
Most folks who kick the drink, drugs, porn or whatever, generally have to replace it with another addiction, that's why so many turn to the gym, religion, hill walking.

Having one or two drinks a week doesn't work, the relationship with what he's hooked on has to be cut off

 

[melted welly]

I have only experienced one person who was an alcoholic.

From what I have picked up it's a case of, once an addict always an addict, it's a genreal weakness of character.
Most folks who kick the drink, drugs, porn or whatever, generally have to replace it with another addiction, that's why so many turn to the gym, religion, hill walking.

Having one or two drinks a week doesn't work, the relationship with what he's hooked on has to be cut off

That’s what wife has said to him, if he comes back here, the wine isn’t welcome, not one glass. We don’t drink, not teetotal but our annual consumption could be drunk in one big evening so to see this habit was an eye opener. Think that’s why he’s gone back to his old haunts, he doesn’t want to cut it out, it’s his thing.

We tried providing alternatives, but he’s not interested in anything now, just sits watching stuff on net about the 1970s, telling anyone who’ll listen how much better things used to be.

 

[melted welly]

Your relative has to want to change for anything to work. Nothing you do will help unless they can help themselves. You can be of huge support to them if they are willing and able to do the work, but sadly you cannot do that work for them.

The fact you are posting on here asking for help and advice shows you care greatly about their welfare.

Addictions are less about the substance and more about numbing/escaping and using it as a crutch to help them cope with emotions they are unable to process.

You can point them to alcoholics anonymous, suggest they see a counsellor to work on and process the emotions underneath it but ultimately it's up to them.


I would suggest trying to hold your own (or anyone elses) emotions as much as possible and try not to take it out on them. They won't respond well and it certainly won't help the situation. I'm sure they are feeling a lot of shame, failure and judgement of themselves already and more of those feelings will drive them deeper still.

Have patience and empathy if you can.
Don't expect too much or set your own judgements/goals for them. They have to work at the pace that they are able to.
Don't enable them.

It's worth seeking help and support for yourselves - addictions are very much about the "system" rather than just the individual. Friends and family get roped in thinking they are helping in the best way they know how but often they can end up part of the problem as much as part of the solution.

You’re right, and I know what you post is right, the anger is a knee jerk reaction to the knock on effects he is oblivious to.

His apparent recklessness impacts on my wife, which impacts on our home life and I see her being sharp with the kids, it’s not fair, it’s not their fault, it’s not her fault, it’s his fault and I want to tell him that. But he’s in the grip of something he can’t control…..

She’s looked at trying to take some control over his life, he doesn’t make rational decisions any more. He spent a whole morning working out the return on investment he’d get after receiving an Email directly from Ellon Musk offering investment opportunities in Space-Ex.

 

[Hilly]

That’s what wife has said to him, if he comes back here, the wine isn’t welcome, not one glass. We don’t drink, not teetotal but our annual consumption could be drunk in one big evening so to see this habit was an eye opener. Think that’s why he’s gone back to his old haunts, he doesn’t want to cut it out, it’s his thing.

We tried providing alternatives, but he’s not interested in anything now, just sits watching stuff on net about the 1970s, telling anyone who’ll listen how much better things used to be.

Im no expert but i think you will just have to wait and still be their for him when he decides he wants to pack up booze , mean time …. Be patient…….. nightmare ! Alcoholism imo is massive in this country now , bloody awful good luck .

 

[milkloss]

Sorry to hear about this. I’m going to be short and sweet with my experiences with close people and alcohol.

you’re just going to have to watch until his life falls apart sadly. If he doesn’t want help, or at least doesn’t realise he needs help, anything you do could very well be pointless and only cause angst. It’ll affect your immediate family negatively too so watch out for that. Don’t invite him into your house…. It will cause problems. When he genuinely wants help then that’s a different story. He will destroy his own life and others around him so build a wall and be careful.

alcohol is horrible and the damage to relationships is huge both directly and with people around the sufferer.

I hope things improve for you all

 

[Steevo]

I have only experienced one person who was an alcoholic.

From what I have picked up it's a case of, once an addict always an addict, it's a genreal weakness of character.
Most folks who kick the drink, drugs, porn or whatever, generally have to replace it with another addiction, that's why so many turn to the gym, religion, hill walking.

Having one or two drinks a week doesn't work, the relationship with what he's hooked on has to be cut off

I disagree with general weakness of character aspect.

I agree with the relationship aspect.

If an addict doesn't deal with and address the fundamental demons from which they are using a substance to numb/hide then they will forever be a hostage to substance abuse.

Deal with the issues underneath, and there's nothing for them to fear or hide from, so they don't need to turn to the substance to numb those feelings.


Addiction is merely an indication that the individual has insufficient coping skills to address the problems they face, and the substance becomes their method of trying to cope.

 

[Chae1]

I'd go for option 2 I'm afraid.

We have done that with a family member with same problem.

Don't regret it to be honest. It's not my side of the family though. I've just said you can't be racked with grief or regret when the inevitable happens and you get that phone call.

It's a terrible addiction.

 

[melted welly]

I'd go for option 2 I'm afraid.

We have done that with a family member with same problem.

Don't regret it to be honest. It's not my side of the family though. I've just said you can't be racked with grief or regret when the inevitable happens and you get that phone call.

It's a terrible addiction.

Same here, not my side and not close with him, so it’s easier to be blunt. It is hard seeing the toll it takes on wife though. Only time he’s ever really made concerted effort for her is either when he needs something or if he’s making some grand gesture, which are both selfish reasons.

It’s addled his mind now too, something I don’t think is fixable.

 

[Chae1]

Same here, not my side and not close with him, so it’s easier to be blunt. It is hard seeing the toll it takes on wife though. Only time he’s ever really made concerted effort for her is either when he needs something or if he’s making some grand gesture, which are both selfish reasons.

It’s addled his mind now too, something I don’t think is fixable.

In our case he's never made any effort. Ever.

I used to push and get onto my wife to go and see him cause i felt sorry for him.

She says he never makes any effort so why should we. I've reached a point where I agree with her.

I've only really known him since I've been with my wife. She's had to put up with it her whole life.

It's amazing he's still alive the amount he's consumed. He's the same, it's affected his mental health now.

 

[Ffermer Bach]

I disagree with general weakness of character aspect.

I agree with the relationship aspect.

If an addict doesn't deal with and address the fundamental demons from which they are using a substance to numb/hide then they will forever be a hostage to substance abuse.

Deal with the issues underneath, and there's nothing for them to fear or hide from, so they don't need to turn to the substance to numb those feelings.


Addiction is merely an indication that the individual has insufficient coping skills to address the problems they face, and the substance becomes their method of trying to cope.

there is a very powerful theory, the appetite path model. We all have a series of fundamental needs that have to be met. If one or more is not met, we use some form of addictive behaviour to dampen the pain of that missing need. The problem is then compounded with things like alcohol, as a physical addiction is added to the psychological one. The answer is psychotherapy to address the underlying unmet need.

 

[GeorgeK]

Unfortunately if he won't admit there's a problem only hitting rock bottom will provide the motivation for change. Basically choosing to change and live or carry on and die. It's very harmful to all involved, and not necessarily his fault but that's how it is. All you can do is let him know you still care and want him back and will help when he's ready to get straight.

 

[Spud]

My auntie was an anorexic chain smoking alcoholic for over 20yrs. She survived on martini and fags. Things escalated to a point where the whole family avoided her as much as possible, and her daughter siad to her 'Mother why don't you just hurry up and die, and do us all a favour' All sorts didn't work, from hiding booze to counselling, softly softly to full anger. She was gripped by the grog, and it was in charge.
Anyway one day in her early 40's she just decided she'd had enough of being pee'd up all the time.
Things improved a bit. At 43 she fell pregnant (they thought all that would of stopped working with the drink, but no, all in working order!)
Sadly the extremes still existed, everything had to be all or nowt, and her and my uncle separated, with a daughter under 3yo
She found god, and takes religion and alcoholics annonymous very seriously indeed.
My cousin spent a lot of time with my uncle (her dad) partly because they practically worshipped each other, but partly because my auntie was (is) so bloody hard work to live with.
Auntie is extreme in views and actions. She has every shelf and cupboard stocked with dried and tinned food ready for when the world ends. Talks the most random nonsense you ever could hear. Family don't make a habit of visiting her particularly, but she's happy enough in her little world of AA and him upstairs.

Essentially, no matter what anyone else says or does, the actions have to come from, and be on the terms of the addicted. If you'd told my aunt years ago she should give up smoking, she'd go out of her way to smoke an extra packet a day just to spite you, thats how addiction is - nothing else matters except the hit.

I have no real solutions of suggestions except be there for your wife, no matter what. I think the same as you, and would want to give him both barrels of a bollocking, but thats not going to do any good. If (hopefully when) he turns a corner, then be there for him. You're clearly not a big drinker yourself so avoiding getting a bottle out at a meal time (for example) will be easier for you than some.
Perhaps get the old photo albums out and let him reminisce - ask if there was anything he and his late wife wanted to do but never got round to, and try make it happen if it helps him.

Its not easy though. Hang in there. Your wife needs you to be a calm ship in a rough sea, not a hurricane to sink the boat.

 

[melted welly]

My auntie was an anorexic chain smoking alcoholic for over 20yrs. She survived on martini and fags. Things escalated to a point where the whole family avoided her as much as possible, and her daughter siad to her 'Mother why don't you just hurry up and die, and do us all a favour' All sorts didn't work, from hiding booze to counselling, softly softly to full anger. She was gripped by the grog, and it was in charge.
Anyway one day in her early 40's she just decided she'd had enough of being pee'd up all the time.
Things improved a bit. At 43 she fell pregnant (they thought all that would of stopped working with the drink, but no, all in working order!)
Sadly the extremes still existed, everything had to be all or nowt, and her and my uncle separated, with a daughter under 3yo
She found god, and takes religion and alcoholics annonymous very seriously indeed.
My cousin spent a lot of time with my uncle (her dad) partly because they practically worshipped each other, but partly because my auntie was (is) so bloody hard work to live with.
Auntie is extreme in views and actions. She has every shelf and cupboard stocked with dried and tinned food ready for when the world ends. Talks the most random nonsense you ever could hear. Family don't make a habit of visiting her particularly, but she's happy enough in her little world of AA and him upstairs.

Essentially, no matter what anyone else says or does, the actions have to come from, and be on the terms of the addicted. If you'd told my aunt years ago she should give up smoking, she'd go out of her way to smoke an extra packet a day just to spite you, thats how addiction is - nothing else matters except the hit.

I have no real solutions of suggestions except be there for your wife, no matter what. I think the same as you, and would want to give him both barrels of a bollocking, but thats not going to do any good. If (hopefully when) he turns a corner, then be there for him. You're clearly not a big drinker yourself so avoiding getting a bottle out at a meal time (for example) will be easier for you than some.
Perhaps get the old photo albums out and let him reminisce - ask if there was anything he and his late wife wanted to do but never got round to, and try make it happen if it helps him.

Its not easy though. Hang in there. Your wife needs you to be a calm ship in a rough sea, not a hurricane to sink the boat.

It’s interesting you saying about your auntie being of the attitude that she’d purposely smoke more if told not too.

He’s the same, he was agitating about going to town later on one night when I was still out combining as he wanted to get wine for the next day. Wife said I’m not taking you, the kids are in bed, he said just leave them, they’ll be fine, she said stop drinking now, and you’ll have 3/4 of a bottle left, he poured the whole lot into a moretti beer glass and downed it, then triumphantly exclaimed “now I’ve run out, what you gonna do?”. I would’ve taken hold of him if I’d seen it. Total disrespect, she didn’t tell me till he’d left.

 

[melted welly]

In our case he's never made any effort. Ever.

I used to push and get onto my wife to go and see him cause i felt sorry for him.

She says he never makes any effort so why should we. I've reached a point where I agree with her.

I've only really known him since I've been with my wife. She's had to put up with it her whole life.

It's amazing he's still alive the amount he's consumed. He's the same, it's affected his mental health now.

It sounds very similar to here, we’re done with the supportive bit I think.

latterly we’ve taken our hols down near him and spend/waste a day seeing him, always governed by when the shakes come on, needs t be away by 3pm, not interested in anything, just moans the whole time or talks shite about prog rock.

Sat down one night the two of us and decided he’s not a very nice person, not nasty, but not nice either, self centred. I remember 1st yr we were together she saved up for a train ticket to go down for a week at Christmas (he was doing very well for himself then), she came back after 2 days, he had her sleeping on some towels in the windowless basement of his 4 bedroom townhouse and hed buggered off to his men only golf club as soon as she arrived. She hadn’t seen him for 3yr at that point and didn’t again till we got married 4 yr later.

 

[Spud]

It’s interesting you saying about your auntie being of the attitude that she’d purposely smoke more if told not too.

He’s the same, he was agitating about going to town later on one night when I was still out combining as he wanted to get wine for the next day. Wife said I’m not taking you, the kids are in bed, he said just leave them, they’ll be fine, she said stop drinking now, and you’ll have 3/4 of a bottle left, he poured the whole lot into a moretti beer glass and downed it, then triumphantly exclaimed “now I’ve run out, what you gonna do?”. I would’ve taken hold of him if I’d seen it. Total disrespect, she didn’t tell me till he’d left.

That highlights the depth of the problem, my condolences.
What did your wife say to him when he did that?

 

[melted welly]

That highlights the depth of the problem, my condolences.
What did your wife say to him when he did that?

She asked how he thought it made her feel.

He couldn’t/wouldn’t answer

 

[melted welly]

That highlights the depth of the problem, my condolences.
What did your wife say to him when he did that?

It was like having a 3rd child some days, there was a lot of crossover with the methods used dealing with a 7 yr old and a 70yr old. One irrational because their mind is not fully formed, the other because alcohol is slowly rotting it away.

 

[br jones]

did he drink a lot before his wife passed ?