Announcement Tomorrow on Banning Live Exports and More Restrictions On Domestic Journeys

[Ffermer Bach]

Questions that the consultation are asking, and my replies

Response ID Submitted to Improvements to animal welfare in transport Submitted on 2020-12-12 12:14:55 Introduction
1 Would you like your response to be confidential? Yes If you answered Yes to this question please give your reason. If you answered No, input 'N/A': I am worried about animal rights fanatics, having my details, a neighbour had to have a line to the police put into his farm to protect him from animal rights fanatics, and as I live alone in an isolated part of the country, I feel this is a legitimate concern.
2 What is your name? Name: xxx
3 What is your email address? Email: xxxx
4 What is your organisation? Organisation: Farmer Live Animal Exports
5 Do you agree that livestock and horse export journeys for slaughter and fattening are unnecessary? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I think it is necessary. We have a livestock industry in the UK that is dominated by a few big companies, having another buyer in the market (for live export) stops those few big players forcing farmers to accept uneconomic prices for their animals. Without those other buyers, we could be forced out of business. If we have a no deal Brexit, lamb meat will have a 43% tariff on it, however live animals will have zero tariff, so we can survive. No deal Brexit and no live exports will decimate the Welsh sheep industry, and then the rural economy. Remember 65% of UK farm land is only suitable for grass. We are losing soil organic matter (and topsoil), however, grazing sheep and cattle on pasture sequests carbon (therefore reducing climate change) and helps build top soil. Doing anything to make the sheep industry uneconomic would damage all that.
6 Do you agree that in order to prohibit livestock and horse export journeys for fattening where the animal will be slaughtered soon after arrival, these export journeys where animals are slaughtered within 6 months of arrival should be prohibited? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: Europe is not a "third world" country, where they have no animal protection or laws, the implication of the above question is that the rest of Europe is not capable of looking after animals. I think we should allow livestock export, and the buyers should have the rights to slaughter their purchases whenever they please.
7 Do you agree that the only exceptions to prohibiting live export journeys should be for poultry live exports, and animals going for breeding or production that will not be slaughtered within 6 months of arrival? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I think live export is live export, there should be no restrictions, and as a trading nation, we should allow trade if we are going to prosper as a country.
8 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation of no longer being able to export livestock or horses for slaughter or fattening? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I believe it would lower the market value of animals produced, and this would be catastrophic for my business, and other Welsh upland farms, this would have a knock on effect for the whole of the Welsh rural economy. Many small businesses "ride" on the back of the Welsh farming industry, and as we are entering uncertain times with leaving the EU, it is very silly to be trying to reduce our ability to trade. Another effect ,that would be of no consequence to DEFRA in England, would be the effect on the Welsh Language (which is strongest in the rural economy), having a thriving language which adds diversity to the fabric of the UK is an important part of our heritage. The only places I visit where Welsh is spoken as a natural language of choice is the Cattle Market, and anything that damages them, damages the cultural diversity of this country.
9 What alternatives would your business or organisation explore if it was not able to export livestock or horses for slaughter or fattening? Please provide your comments in the text box below: I live in West Wales, unfortunately small farms are market takers, not makers, so we would have to accept what the market offered. Maximum Journey Times
10 Do you agree with the proposed maximum journey times as outlined in Table 1? Please explain your views and highlight any potential regional impacts that your business or organisation might experience. Please provide your comments in the text box below: The present journey times are fine, we have the finest animal protection in this country, that does not need altering.
11 Do you see a need for any exceptions to the maximum journey times and, if so, why? Please provide evidence. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I am more than happy with our current system.
12 In the case of such exceptions, what requirements should be put in place to ensure animal welfare is protected? Please provide your comments in the text box below: see above.
13 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation due to new maximum journey times being implemented? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: see above.
14 Including loading, unloading and stops, how long is your average journey for the livestock, poultry or horses that your business or organisation manage? Please provide your comments in the text box below: 1 1/2 hours.
15 Do you agree that a new journey should not start until a minimum of 48 hours have elapsed after the previous journey? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: The present system is working well, why alter something that is fine?
16 Do you agree that there should be a minimum 7-day rest period for cattle? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: see above.

17 Do you agree that we should prohibit both short and long poultry journeys when the external temperature is outside of a temperature range of 5-25oC, unless the vehicle is able to regulate the internal temperature within this range for the duration of the journey by means of a thermo-regulation system, and that this temperature range should be 5-25oC? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I do not breed poultry.
18 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation of prohibiting both short and long poultry journeys when the external temperature range is outside of 5-25oC? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: none.
19 Do you agree that we should prohibit both short and long livestock and horse journeys when the external temperature is outside of a temperature range of 5-30oC, unless the vehicle is able to regulate the internal temperature within this range for the duration of the journey by means of a thermo-regulation system, and that this temperature range should be 5-30oC? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: Often during the winter months, it is below 5 degrees C, and in the summer above 30 degrees C. In these instances (which can alter day to day), I could not move livestock. How can I plan my business? I could not justify temperature controlled transport for the two dozen journeys a year. I am worried that because the livestock markets could be "closed" down on a hot or cold day, they would not stay open and would close. This would be catastrophic for the Welsh farming industry. This would destroy farming in the UK.
20 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation of prohibiting both short and long livestock and horse journeys when the external temperature range is outside of 5-30oC? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: It would be catastrophic.
21 Do you think that there are other species that should be considered as vulnerable and have a smaller external temperature range applied, outside of which journeys cannot take place? Please provide evidence. Please provide your comments in the text box below: no I do not.
22 What proportion of your current transportation vehicles have the facility to regulate temperature and provide ventilation? Please provide your comments in the text box below: all stock boxes have ventilation openings.
23 For your vehicles which do not have the facility to regulate temperature and provide ventilation, what would be the cost of retrofitting to enable them to regulate temperature and provide ventilation? Please provide your comments in the text box below: it would be uneconomic, for a small farm, maybe I would have to "walk" my animals to the market on the A road instead.
24 Are there any other steps that can be taken to ensure animal welfare can be maintained in extreme weather? Please provide evidence. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I am happy with our present system.
Space Allowances
25 Do you agree that we should use allometric principles as a basis for future space allowance calculations? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I am happy with our present space allowances, they are fine.
26 Do you think that reforms to space allowances based on allometric principles should apply to both short and long journeys? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: small farms, and livestock hauliers are working in a tough economic conditions, forcing them to change their systems would be catastrophic economically.
Headroom Allowances
27 Do you agree with the proposed species-specific headroom requirements? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I am happy with the present head room allowances, increasing them cause an increase in lorries on the roads (with an increase in use of fossil fuels), at a time when we are trying to reduce fuel use to slow down climate change. Livestock farming is already pretty precarious financially, doing more to increase costs would be the final nail in the coffin.
28 Do you think that the proposed species-specific headroom requirements should apply to both short and long journeys? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I disagree.
29 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation of the proposed headroom requirements for both short and long journeys? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: catastrophic.
Sea Transport
30 Do you agree that we should prevent animals from being transported in rough weather at sea and that animals should not be transported during Beaufort Wind Force 6 or above? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I have no knowledge of sea transport.
31 What would be the financial impact to your business or organisation of prohibiting transport during Beaufort Wind Force of 6 or above? Please explain any impacts provided. Please provide your comments in the text box below: see above.
Exceptions
32 Do you think that there should be any exceptions to the previously mentioned proposals alongside the specific exceptions already outlined, excluding the proposal to prohibit live exports for slaughter and fattening? Please provide evidence. Please provide your comments in the text box below: I see no reason to change our present systems.
33 What conditions should be met in order to ensure animal welfare is protected in the case of other exceptions? Please provide your comments in the text box below: NA
34 Do you think that it should be possible to obtain permission to use an exception on an ongoing basis to avoid the need for transporters to apply before every applicable journey? Please explain your views. Please provide your comments in the text box below: NA
Consultee Feedback on the Online Survey
35 Overall, how satisfied are you with our online consultation tool? Neither satisfied nor dissatisfied Please give us any comments you have on the tool, including suggestions on how we could improve it:

 

[spin cycle]

i don't know where this thread has gone...but i just saw this and IMO this needs banning before livestock...new caught live lobsters....claws banded together

 

[JP1]

I spent an hour this afternoon measuring sheep which having seen them for the last 60 plus years I discovered something new about them, so you are never too old to learn. The height of sheep of similar breeds varies very little.

Romney lambs 42 - 48 kg, average 45kg (shorn in June) were 68 cm at the shoulder and 76 cm to the top of the head
Charrolais X Romney average 42 kg 66 cm and 74 cm
50 kg Texels 70 cm and 77 cm

Romney ewes 65 to 80 kg average 72kg were 70 cm and 76 - 78 cm

An interesting observation was that after half an hour of standing still they sunk around 2 cm, which I realised is as they relaxed their legs actually seem to lower into a relaxed position. So in fact the ewes were lower than the lambs to the top of the head.

If one adds on the extra 22cm that Defra is suggesting in the consultation then each deck will need to have 90 cm minimum or close to 3' which would make a 4 decker have to be over 16' high.

Hope that helps with your research Jeremy.
Having data for more breeds will be useful.

Frank. Thank you for doing this. You were the only one that bothered

 

[Frank-the-Wool]

Frank. Thank you for doing this. You were the only one that bothered

Everyone is happy that they will only get one deck on their Ifor Williams and won't be allowed to carry any full grown cattle at all!

 

[Still Farming]

Everyone is happy that they will only get one deck on their Ifor Williams and won't be allowed to carry any full grown cattle at all!

Livestock hauliers be laughing then?

 

[Henarar]

Frank. Thank you for doing this. You were the only one that bothered

Steady on, should we have walked the in lamb ewes a mile back home to measure them then a mile back to the field ? as we have not handled any sheep since you asked

 

[JP1]

Steady on, should we have walked the in lamb ewes a mile back home to measure them then a mile back to the field ? as we have not handled any sheep since you asked

No you shouldn’t

Plenty of others could have

 

[Bob]

Everyone is happy that they will only get one deck on their Ifor Williams and won't be allowed to carry any full grown cattle at all!

Is 3ft deck height not enough to comply with these proposals?

 

[JP1]

Is 3ft deck height not enough to comply with these proposals?

No not as written

They are suggesting 22cm above the naturally carried head height of sheep

And this is the issue especially for farmers with smaller 8ft type trailers with decks where the deck heights are often less than 33" and for 4 decker artic trailers on the swan neck especially

 

[Moors Lad]

I saw a haulage company boss on TV this evening and he was explaining that the drivers in the queues at Dover had to dig a hole at the side of the road if they wanted a toilet....
I`m sure that Boris will personally be manning the portable facilities when these big lorry "parks" he`s planned for post brexit become a reality!!!
When our smart-ars* leaders have sussed out how to treat people properly ( providing BASIC necessities like toilets/washing facilities ), not to mention food for hungry kids, and shelter for homeless folk then I would be quite happy for them to start looking in more detail at animal related issues. At present I would say that the present standards/conditions for livestock in transport seem very good when compared to what they put some people through....

 

[Moors Lad]

I`m sure that Boris will personally be manning the portable facilities when these big lorry "parks" he`s planned for post brexit become a reality!!!

Well I`m gonna have to eat my words... I saw a clip of BBC film with Pritti Patel explaining that there will be facilities for drivers when "operation brock" is functioning. ( jeepers, she doesn`t much, that one!)
I`m still certain they see more votes in sorting out problems that don`t exist with livestock rather than some more pressing problems with mere people.

 

[andybk]

dont know if its RAF getting Frost and negotiators home or Boris going to make a joint statement , krf sigs vip on board

 

[Tim W]

dont know if its RAF getting Frost and negotiators home or Boris going to make a joint statement , krf sigs vip on board

Sorry ,that was me ----been late Xmas shopping cuz there were queues at the BP garage

 

[andybk]

Sorry ,that was me ----been late Xmas shopping cuz there were queues at the BP garage

some graziers will do anything for new keep ground !

 

[topground]

Does anyone have any idea of the cost of converting an Ifor Williams stock box and a Toyota Hilux to comply with the new proposals
or if this is even possible? It is one of the questions on the consultation document as many of you will have noticed in the proposals which seek to anthropomorphis farm livestock.

 

[steveR]

dont know if its RAF getting Frost and negotiators home or Boris going to make a joint statement , krf sigs vip on board



View attachment 928905

Father Christmas bringing Brexit cheer.....?

 

[JP1]

Does anyone have any idea of the cost of converting an Ifor Williams stock box and a Toyota Hilux to comply with the new proposals
or if this is even possible? It is one of the qyestions on the consultation document as many of you will have noticed in the proposals which seek to anthropomorphis farm livestock.

I doubt it will be economic. Some Nugent trailers offer 950mm decks and realistically based on @Frank-the-Wool's figures you'll need at least 30mm more on even those generous decks for finished lambs and at least 50mm more for ewes

You'll run out of bridge clearing height on artic deckers. The only remedy there may be make substantial engineering changes to convert to three decks on the swan neck but then you lose the strength of the cow deck floor

I've spent around 30 hours of my time on the consultation thus far assisting various trade bodies and interested parties and plan to get to the point where I've got the RHA, NSA and NFU positions formalised in my head before I do my own submission. I shall be responding by email but not in the DEFRA loaded question survey (the Minister really really needs to be taken to task with the phrasing of the survey in NGO speak and with pejorative terms like "packed" when the question is about stocking density. Adequate stocking density is actually a GOOD thing for animal welfare, that's one of the bonusses where you have movable partition boards)

 

[Highland Mule]

Any insight into what heating system would be required JP? As I understand it, the proposals don’t apply to Scotland yet (which presumably precludes us from making comment), but would stop movement through about three months of the year.

 

[JP1]

Any insight into what heating system would be required JP? As I understand it, the proposals don’t apply to Scotland yet (which presumably precludes us from making comment), but would stop movement through about three months of the year.

It encompasses Scotland in that WATO had subsidiary and parallel legislation but gave the Scottish Parliament licence to extend travel times for the Highlands and Islands etc

What the NGO's want is no travel outside of the ambient bands

One pig B&B company subsidised the acquisition of a temperature controlled vehicle for ONE of the vehicles operated by their incumbent haulage contractor. I believe the premis was to still draw weaners off outdoor units in the Winter off the Derbyshire Dales etc

The issues are:

• I saw that box delivering in the Summer, the piglets came off sweaty compared with the ambient ventilated box with the remainder of the piglets
• The unloading takes so much longer as the box has fixed decks and a tail lift at the end
• The capital cost of a Berdex trailer is around £250k vs £110-130k
• Most importantly these vehicles on the Continent tend to only haul pigs and no other species, have fixed decks, use HEPA fllters for breeding / multiplication loads at the start of the week and the rest of the week on multiple loads of slaughter pigs.
• In the UK most deckers are effectively multi-species trampers away all week and having to carry various species in either direction
• Many UK farmers require a haulier to be pig free for a period of time before their load (Swine dysentry outbreaks in Yorkshire accelerating this ), so hauliers must rest expensive trailers or carry other species

 

[Henarar]

Any insight into what heating system would be required JP? As I understand it, the proposals don’t apply to Scotland yet (which presumably precludes us from making comment), but would stop movement through about three months of the year.

Don't mammals make their own heat.
What a stupid rule that would be if they brought it in