Another one of those threads........how much?

[Jerry]

Today I have been offered about 60 acres of ground to rent.

The pertinent facts:

- Approx 5 miles from main farm, no buildings.

- "Rental" period will be annual recurring for all of it, but there is a development option on about 20 acres that will mean that could go within a couple of years if not sooner. Currently no planning is in place but it is likely as infill and I know two developers are trying to reach a deal.

- Currently all ground is down to grass, all less than 5 years down as grass and arable cropped in the past. Exciting HLS scheme this October.

- All ground is classified as Organic and managed as such within Soil Association rules. (Grazing of non organic stock for 4 months a year is allowed)

- Soil type is grade 1, light red Devon soils, all pretty much level and well drained.

- Boundary fences are all good that I have seen so far, stock wire with 1 or 2 strand barb on top. Loads of elm trees in hedges that have keeled over and will need clearing as they will pull the fences down if not.

- All fields OK direct access from road

- Mains water in some but not all fields but reasonably easy to run extra pipes if needed

- Loads of rabbits, and I mean 1000's. One boundary is railway embankment and it is hooching in the bloody things.

- As a result of above and the fact it is next to houses there are foxes everywhere as well, saw 4 just walking it around this afternoon.

- Approx 16 acres was sown to barley last year and not combined, (rabbits had the lot), undersown with clover and rye grass, now over knee high but lots of thatch in the base but good clover percentage.

- Rest has been grass for some time, all but 8 acres is in decent shape and being light soil would hold store lambs over winter no bother.

Have discussed a few things with current owner and Organic status might be removed as development is on the cards for some of it.

So, given that it might be organic, should grow some decent grass but I'm not willing to reseed as it could be short term. Not directly next door and needs some work so how much is it worth? (Bear in mind Ive been invited to farm it and it wont come on the open market I suspect)

I am minded to say:

1 For the 16 acres not cropped last year, first year rent of zero, I sort it out to get it back in hand and graze it and take a cut of hay next year.

2 Rest of ground, minimal rent this year but I will clear all the trees fallen over the fences, make good and clean up the pastures by topping thistles and nettles. (No sign of ragwort anywhere by the way)

3 There is 8 acres (one field) that is the lowest lying and not been touched much, full of crap grass (Yorkshire Fog) and rushes. Would not take it so leave out of the equation or undertake to maintain it but zero rent.

4 Happy to go with a grazing license with option to cut/mow for hay/haylage, uplift if he and the rules would allow to go back to arable where possible.

But what level of rent for second year??

Interested to hear the collectives view point.....

 

[GTB]

If that was in Wales some idiot would offer £100 per acre for it.....

I would try to get the organic status removed and would offer a sensible rent of say £50 per acre on the clean land. Year two you would still pay the same rate but for more acres. The field with rushes might not be so bad once it's been mowed and sprayed/weed wiped.

Many on here will tell you not to take it unless it's free but in reality (especially in this area) there's always someone that will pay silly money for it so it's best to offer something as long as the sums add up.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Whos claiming SFP

 

[pine_guy]

As above you would need £100+ for the likes round here. But I would pay £50 and think I could make money out of it. You have a standing crop of grass in one field that just needs harvested for a start. Has it had sheep on recently? If not and is clean ground, they will bounce on it the first year.

 

[Clive]

Sounds close to worthless to me

A lot of marginal land really isn't worth anything at current prices even though agents think it's worth £150 plus. The only reason to take it is a longer term view that prices will rise,.............. At which point they will want more rent or give it soneone else after you have improved it !

I turned down some "free" land earlier this year, there was a thread in here about it if you search back

Why be a busy fool for soneone else's benifit ?

 

[Jerry]

Whos claiming SFP

Landowner

 

[Jerry]

As above you would need £100+ for the likes round here. But I would pay £50 and think I could make money out of it. You have a standing crop of grass in one field that just needs harvested for a start. Has it had sheep on recently? If not and is clean ground, they will bounce on it the first year.

Sheep run on most last few months.

 

[tinto]

RUN!!

 

[CopperBeech]

Sounds like you could have some fun with the rabbits and foxes . . . .

 

[Jerry]

Sounds close to worthless to me

A lot of marginal land really isn't worth anything at current prices even though agents think it's worth £150 plus. The only reason to take it is a longer term view that prices will rise,.............. At which point they will want more rent or give it soneone else after you have improved it !

I turned down some "free" land earlier this year, there was a thread in here about it if you search back

Why be a busy fool for soneone else's benifit ?

Yep, this is the dilemma.

Sadly this is very good ground, just neglected in the main. Next door is a very nice veg farm growing mainly root crops.

One thing in my favour is no agents involved other than ours to draw the agreement up, should make life simpler.

But as you say, my concern is 2 years down the road after we have put some effort in he either sells our for development on some of it or hands it away to someone else.

 

[yellowbelly]

Be careful and don't pay too much - he's already getting BPS, so he needs you to keep it in "good agricultural condition", if the development potential is infill then there's the danger of dogs and feral children to stock and bales etc and like you say there is a risk of you just getting it pulled round and losing it before you get any real benefit.

 

[Derrick Hughes]

Landowner

Hes on a sticky wicket if its on a 12 rent , he would not be able to claim in Wales , you have to be doing most of the work on said farm

 

[Grassman]

You would be doing him a service taking it on really.
He should be farming it anyway if he claims the payments.

 

[GTB]

Yep, this is the dilemma.

Sadly this is very good ground, just neglected in the main. Next door is a very nice veg farm growing mainly root crops.

One thing in my favour is no agents involved other than ours to draw the agreement up, should make life simpler.

But as you say, my concern is 2 years down the road after we have put some effort in he either sells our for development on some of it or hands it away to someone else.

I think id be wanting a five year agreenent tbh. No point getting the place tidy for someone else's benefit. If they let you have a ten year agreement then you might even be tempted to do some reseeding

Edit: you should be claiming the BPS too. The owner is on very shaky ground (or would be here in Wales anyhow).

 

[Grassman]

It's actually fraud claiming subsidy when you aren't a genuine claimant. Much the same as someone claiming housing benefit yet havn't disclosed they have other income.
It's time some cases were taken to court with big publicity. The payment is for farmers not landowners!

 

[Derrick Hughes]

It's actually fraud claiming subsidy when you aren't a genuine claimant. Much the same as someone claiming housing benefit yet havn't disclosed they have other income.
It's time some cases were taken to court with big publicity. The payment is for farmers not landowners!

They have clear rules to define an active farmer so no need for the hang man

 

[jondear]

Location location location .I would have it as it is .Obviously no other organic farmers in district .Is that why he's offered it to you .?

 

[GTB]

I turned down some "free" land earlier this year, there was a thread in here about it if you search back

Yes that was probably very wise but not everyone's situation is the same. You, I'm guessing, are in a position of having plenty, "ar ben dy ddigon" as we say in Wales. But with the greatest respect I'm sure some of your forefathers will have busted their guts to put you in that position. Others will have to take whatever they can and try their best to make something of it and I wish them all the luck in the world.

 

[Clive]

Yes that was probably very wise but not everyone's situation is the same. You, I'm guessing, are in a position of having plenty, "ar ben dy ddigon" as we say in Wales. But with the greatest respect I'm sure some of your forefathers will have busted their guts to put you in that position. Others will have to take whatever they can and try their best to make something of it and I wish them all the luck in the world.

i understand what your saying but the land in question would probably bankrupts someone less able than me to take it on - it needed a fortune spending on making it productive which was an investment that I couldn't afford so cant really see how it would be more affordable for anyone in a less fortunate position ?

and the risk of loosing it or more rent being demanded you did make something of it remains the same

too many are just keen to farm more land totally regardless of if it will make them better off or not ..................bloody expensive and dangerous addiction if you ask me !

 

[Brisel]

Tell them you want the BPS and entitlements - they are not allowed to claim if they don't have management control. A grazing licence is ok as the grazier is only making use of what is growing out of the ground, not the land underneath it - whilst this seema pedantic, this is how the RPA view it for BPS purposes. Cropping licences are not viewed at valid unless the BPS claimant has bought the seed & sprays then sells the crop off after 16th May.

If not, you want £40/acre to look after it for them and to undertake the works you talked about. If they say no, it's a grazing licence only really. Otherwise, walk away. It doesn't really sound like arable is viable - the rabbit fencing will cost a fair bit for a start.

Can you wander down & take some soil samples on your own account? I somehow doubt there will be much in the soil & with the developer's unpredictability of timing it's not worth putting much more than offtake back on either. The organic status really doesn't help.