Back to traditional farming or hobby farmers?

[toquark]

HMRC would love it and screw the crap out of you as in their terms" hobby farmers"????

Our accountant reckoned that unless you were producing and therefore selling literally nothing then you were a commercial farmer in their eyes. It could be as little as a handful of lambs a year.

In my case I’m not looking to draw a wage from the farm, it’s an interest which at the same time builds a decent capital asset in the livestock and the infrastructure which is all paid for by the farm. I just supplied the seed capital and ongoing labour.

EDIT: and it also provides an excellentplace to live and raise a family

 

[spin cycle]

think you need to differentiate between 'hobby' ie it doesn't need to pay and 'part time' where income from it is needed to contribute towards living costs

 

[Kiwi Pete]

What are hobby farmers in their terms? I’m certainly not a hobby farmer.

It depends on your profit over the past 3 years in most parts of the world.
Unsure about HMRC but if you can generate enough income via business activities each year to be viable, then it's not a hobby.

In general terms, a hobby cannot afford to pay the CEO where a business can, ie you're not subsidising it by giving your time and input for a discounted rate.
Many small businesses are technically hobbies in their startup phase (that 3 year period) and don't progress far past it before either closing down or adapting

 

[Tractortim]

I agree that there is a difference between part time, hobby and small scale although like everything the boundaries can merge. I am hobby I do around 12 hours a week and don’t get any income. This is done helping my part time farming dad. Like allot there has always been a desire to make it more commercial but I’ve realised over the years that keeping it as a hobby fits best with me. I do it because I enjoy being outside in a beautiful place and love working with animals. The difficulty I find is trying to do this with my dad who has part time farmer mentality.

 

[GeorgeK]

I often think the real world profitability of farming is worse than generally acknowledged. Legacy subsidies might include drainage, land (and any decline in it's fertility), farm house and yard. Then there's direct and indirect subsides in the form of BPS, cheap labour (any instance the same work could earn more off farm) and income from diversification.
There are always excuses made to justify the extra cash propping the farm up, like putting development money into a new farm yard because it's "A long term investment that will pay for itself eventually" when it won't, if the farm was making money it should be able to pay for the necessary premises. Or profits from diversification used to run the farm because of the "Synergy" between the businesses. But in reality the diversification could run as a stand alone business, in fact the farm is draining profit and focus and holding it back. Or just plain working hard for too little money because it's "Building the assets," when the land would have gone up in value regardless.
Of course there is a bigger picture and there's more to life than profit and loss accounts...

 

[egbert]

I often think the real world profitability of farming is worse than generally acknowledged. Legacy subsidies might include drainage, land (and any decline in it's fertility), farm house and yard. Then there's direct and indirect subsides in the form of BPS, cheap labour (any instance the same work could earn more off farm) and income from diversification.
There are always excuses made to justify the extra cash propping the farm up, like putting development money into a new farm yard because it's "A long term investment that will pay for itself eventually" when it won't, if the farm was making money it should be able to pay for the necessary premises. Or profits from diversification used to run the farm because of the "Synergy" between the businesses. But in reality the diversification could run as a stand alone business, in fact the farm is draining profit and focus and holding it back. Or just plain working hard for too little money because it's "Building the assets," when the land would have gone up in value regardless.
Of course there is a bigger picture and there's more to life than profit and loss accounts...

^^^^^^this

Most/a lot of us have been 'hobby farmers' for some time now, but haven't realised it.

I'm trying not be down at the thought of how the overall maintenance will be met in the face of falling subs.
Already, here, the only way surplus cash is taken out is if historic boundary/infrastructure work is neglected.
Looking down the hill, where hedges/boundaries are only affordably managed if they're kept flailed tight, I wonder if the ELMs whizzes understand how the landscape is kept in production?

It's a lifestyle choice I'm making, and I don't need to re-adjust immediately, but the reserves will start to evaporate the minute the tap is turned off.
It's sobering.
I love my cows, they're an engaging hobby...but.....

 

[delilah]

The good old ways: can we still farm like our grandparents?

Against the odds, small-scale farmers are learning new ways to survive in an age of industrial-scale competition

www.theguardian.com

Even with access to land, Lloyd says the food system is skewed against small-scale farmers trying to sell their produce.
“We have a supermarket bottleneck of eight supermarkets who supply 90% of our food.

The only bit of the article that matters. Change that, or, as others above have said, you continue down the line of a two tier farming system. One which leaves many on here out of a farm, and probably out of a job in the industry. Market share is the root of all evil.

 

[toquark]

I agree a lot of people will kid themselves into thinking they’re making money when in fact their sinking, albeit slowly. I suspect a significant number of family farms will fall into this category of running faster to stand still.

These are the people with decisions to make. Nowadays, it’s quite feasible with contract help to run a traditional family farm alongside a job if you so wish, unless you’re dairying or something. Your day job pays your day to day expenses and lifestyle and the farm pays for itself plus a side income.

lifestyle expectations have also risen massively, which compounds the farm profitability conundrum. 50 years ago no one aspired to having two nice cars and a foreign holiday every year and a houseinterior straight out of country living magazine. Not saying these expectations are a bad thing but these farms never were capable of paying for it.

 

[Johnnyboxer]

I am relatively small scale arable, and the non farming enterprises bring in way more than the farming, but now using contractors I think I shall have more time for better management and with low overheads I fully intend to run an efficient farming unit going forward that is both resilient and adaptable. No matter what size you are, you need to have a plan.

Wise words from a successful and varied farmer [emoji106]

 

[Woolless]

Even with access to land, Lloyd says the food system is skewed against small-scale farmers trying to sell their produce.
“We have a supermarket bottleneck of eight supermarkets who supply 90% of our food.

The only bit of the article that matters. Change that, or, as others above have said, you continue down the line of a two tier farming system. One which leaves many on here out of a farm, and probably out of a job in the industry. Market share is the root of all evil.

You make this point repeatedly and it's a very good one. But how the hell do we loosen their grip? Government loves them for a start, as they have assumed responsibility for reliably providing the masses with cheap food.

 

[egbert]

You make this point repeatedly and it's a very good one. But how the hell do we loosen their grip? Government loves them for a start, as they have assumed responsibility for reliably providing the masses with cheap food.

Both their rise, and success, is largely a reflection of the oil age.
Cars came to dominate how the masses live - and shop- and we were able to produce more , cheaper, in the new age of mechanisation.
(even in muppet peasant land, I've just been able to feed more beasts in and hour and a half than my Grandparents could have kept, with labour)

It's more than just cheap energy from fossil fuels, but that's the driver behind so much of it.

I have no idea how you break the cycle.
Wtf happens the week the ships don't slide into dock with the 'price holding' imports -for whatever reason-, I have no idea either, although we all know what occurs in the short term when that happens.
Having your own, and a little to sell then makes you a gozillionaire...if you can hold it.

 

[davieh3350]

would any of you split up your farms and let them out as crofts/smallholdings for people to farm, live out in the country?

 

[teslacoils]

I'd love to be a hobby farmer. After reinvestment in kit, which kept getting more expensive, there really was no good money in it. Main problem is the complete lack of decent paying rural jobs to do as an alternative.

 

[Formatted]

Isn't that just the future of farming? Cattle/crops/sheep that grow whilst you earn a wage?

An additional thought I had last night, the amount of time our neighbours spend maintaining old farm equipment or faffing with poor infrastructure (gates that don't swing/troughs that leak), its no wonder they don't have time to have another job.

We get ridiculed for not "farming" enough but the reality is we do the things that create value on the farm and they do all the things that don't. There is a great book called "Lean Dairy", that talks about that mindset

 

[Hindsight]

Even with access to land, Lloyd says the food system is skewed against small-scale farmers trying to sell their produce.
“We have a supermarket bottleneck of eight supermarkets who supply 90% of our food.

The only bit of the article that matters. Change that, or, as others above have said, you continue down the line of a two tier farming system. One which leaves many on here out of a farm, and probably out of a job in the industry. Market share is the root of all evil.

Well Delilah - you can hold a senior Tory to account - this article appears in today The Times. Scroll down half way and you will find Goves 'promise' to small farms. Highlighted in bold. (I will now say I struggle with Gove - I find him equally smarmy as Starmer)

Michael Gove: We have taken back control, now we can level up at home

Michael Gove

Saturday December 26 2020, 12.01am, The Times
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Throughout it all, one fact mattered. More people in the UK voted to leave the EU than have ever voted for anything. The 2016 referendum campaign was not an easy moment in the life of this country but there was a reason why it mattered so much to so many. It gave them the chance to take back control.

Those three words resonated because they spoke to the frustrations of millions. Whatever the original nobility of the European project, the reality for so many Britons was an erosion of control of their lives. Laws were made by people they hadn’t elected, rules were laid down by institutions they couldn’t change, power was exercised without accountability. Their voices could be ignored and all too often were.


In the referendum they couldn’t be ignored. Every voice, and every vote, in every constituency was equal. Shaping the future didn’t depend on proximity to power, credentials or connections. It was democracy’s day.

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The change for which we voted wasn’t just a demand for a new relationship with the EU but also for a new settlement within the UK. Families and communities that had been overlooked and undervalued wanted to make our political system more responsive to their needs.
That is what the Brexit process now allows. I won’t deny it’s been difficult. Friendships have been strained, families were divided and our politics has been rancorous and, at times, ugly. Through the past four years, as a politician at the centre of this debate, I’ve made more than my share of mistakes or misjudgments, seen old friendships crumble and those closest to me have to endure pressures they never anticipated.

But through it all I’ve been conscious of a responsibility. I asked people to vote Leave so they could have their voices heard. They were clear about what needed to change. From Peterhead to Port Talbot. I had a duty to do everything I could to deliver for them. Which is why I am so glad that the Brexit deal the prime minister has secured fulfils the pledges Vote Leave made. We can now embark on a new, more hopeful, chapter in our history.
Business has certainty and the ability to plan for growth and investment. We can develop a new pattern of friendly co-operation with the EU, a special relationship if you will, between sovereign equals. And there are hopeful signs that those at the hardest ends of this argument are beating their polemical swords into ploughshares, moving politics into a better place.
The greatest prize, however, is the chance now to renew our country and help it to recover from the ravages of the Covid-19 pandemic in a spirit of shared endeavour and solidarity.
We have a duty to spread opportunity more equally across the UK. Outside the EU, with a good trade deal in place, we can tackle the injustices and inequalities that have held Britain back.
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Outside the single market and the customs union we can establish free ports, bringing innovation and investment to parts of the country that have endured economic decline. We can develop a smarter regulatory framework in new and emerging areas of technology, from the life sciences to AI, which can bring jobs to areas which have been neglected. We can intervene more smartly to support scientists and tech entrepreneurs.
Outside the common agricultural policy we can support small farmers better and invest more in the environment. Outside the common fisheries policy we can secure more investment in coastal communities and manage our marine environment more sustainably. Outside the jurisdiction of the European Court we can introduce an Australian-style points-based immigration system, which enables us to attract the best scientific and medical talent while also protecting lower-paid workers from pressure on their wages.
This deal also allows us better to support our advanced manufacturing sector — from Sunderland to Sutherland — as we develop new electric vehicles and an independent space and satellite sector.
To those who ask, “what is Brexit for?” it’s important to remember who this government is for. We are committed to a fairer, more inclusive country in which those whose horizons were narrowed through no fault of their own enjoy the dignity they deserve. The tools that Brexit places in our hands will be used to level up opportunity.
Of course, there is still work to be done. And in the short term there is much to be done to help prepare business for our new relationships. After December 31 companies and individuals will need to adjust to new customs processes and border procedures. The deal smooths that transition but the changes are still significant and ministers have a responsibility not to let up on preparing new IT systems, new import rules and new trading infrastructure.
The past four years have been challenging. But we end this year with hope. From the work of the scientists who have developed new vaccines, through to the selflessness of those who work in the NHS and care sector, and the kindness of so many volunteers, we have been reminded of what we owe to others and what unites us as a country. That spirit of common endeavour should be what animates us for the year ahead. And the next chapter we write together can be a shared story in which we all take pride.
Michael Gove is Cabinet Office minister



Michael Gove

 

[Formatted]

decent paying rural jobs to do as an alternative.

I work for a software company, can work from anywhere in the world from my laptop. We were all heading to a world with fewer offices but the pandemic has accelerated that, with an internet connection and a bit of training no reason why you couldn't do most service provision jobs now

 

[Hindsight]

I work for a software company, can work from anywhere in the world from my laptop. We were all heading to a world with fewer offices but the pandemic has accelerated that, with an internet connection and a bit of training no reason why you couldn't do most service provision jobs now

Hairdressing? Robot? Teasing - Best wishes.

 

[Johnnyboxer]

An additional thought I had last night, the amount of time our neighbours spend maintaining old farm equipment or faffing with poor infrastructure (gates that don't swing/troughs that leak), its no wonder they don't have time to have another job.
t

I just don’t get it with some farmers ?

Why not replace or repair gate hinges and locks with new ones - just better than tying & bodging with string

Water troughs leaking and poaching grass/mess

New ballcock and innards or a trough - not hard is it ?

Rusting and never used abandoned machinery in fields in rows, taking up valuable land for grazing or cropping

Why do farmers put up with it ?

 

[glasshouse]

Before hankering after a bygone age in farming, ask Grandmother, Great Grandmother, or better still ask Great Great Grandmother or the women Bondagers in Berwickshire, what they thought of it.

Up to about 70 years ago, women in farming had an exceptionally difficult life.

So did men

 

[glasshouse]

I just don’t get it with some farmers ?

Why not replace or repair gate hinges and locks with new ones - just better than tying & bodging with string

Water troughs leaking and poaching grass/mess

New ballcock and innards or a trough - not hard is it ?

Rusting and never used abandoned machinery in fields in rows, taking up valuable land for grazing or cropping

Why do farmers put up with it ?

Because those machines are needed