Back to traditional farming or hobby farmers?

[honeyend]

Before hankering after a bygone age in farming, ask Grandmother, Great Grandmother, or better still ask Great Great Grandmother or the women Bondagers in Berwickshire, what they thought of it.

Up to about 70 years ago, women in farming had an exceptionally difficult life.

I think before electric gadgets and mains power all women's lives were difficult. Monday was wash day, nearly all done by hand with a gas boiler for the whites, my job was helping with the hand mangle. In winter the house was full of steaming clothing in front of the open fire, but we had a modern fangled back boiler, that used to bump when the water boiled. The washing machine would be hand filled with hot water with buckets, no change of water so by the time it got to the overalls the water was almost sludge.
In the seventies I knew two women who cooked on the old fashioned range, there was a tank for boiling water, the only hot water in the house. The oven beside it, we used to have chips baked in beef dripping in the oven as a special treat. They had no mains sewage to it was just the outdoor lav, with the wash boiler next door.
Most women didn't drive an the 'housekeeper' for the old boys on the farm would be driven once a week to do the shopping. Everything in the house had a film of soot on it, but as there was no mains electric, just one bulb that dangled from a wire in the ceiling connected to battery you didn't really notice it.
The irony of this farm was it was just across the way IH, who of course had electric, and was only about a two mile from town. The farm of course is no longer there, it's a nature reserve and a generic pub.

 

[Ted M]

I work fulltime, takes me 30 minutes to do the cows in the morning and 45 minutes in the evening, in the summer I could be in and out in 15 minutes. On weekends we do all the jobs full-time farmers do in the week, anything time-sensitive we use contractors.

Isn't that just the future of farming? Cattle/crops/sheep that grow whilst you earn a wage?

Pretty much the same with me although my "full time" job is contracting for other people which does have the added benefit of being able to own /use machinery we could never justify.
One thing that frustrates me is seeing long established farmers with similar stock numbers to me who just make their jobs fill the day and are "busy"
If it takes you an hour or all day it doesn't make your cattle, sheep or milk worth any more.

 

[delilah]

But how the hell do we loosen their grip?

I have no idea how you break the cycle.

By working with your allies in the environmental and social justice movements to implement the attached.

 

[delilah]

Outside the common agricultural policy we can support small farmers better

Fab. All we need then is for someone to explain to him that all meaningful change is demand driven. He can't 'support small farms better' by supporting small farms. He can do it by creating a marketplace in which they can thrive.

 

[organicguy]

I work fulltime, takes me 30 minutes to do the cows in the morning and 45 minutes in the evening, in the summer I could be in and out in 15 minutes. On weekends we do all the jobs full-time farmers do in the week, anything time-sensitive we use contractors.

Isn't that just the future of farming? Cattle/crops/sheep that grow whilst you earn a wage?

The issue for me is that the value of the produce from your cattle does not provide you with a living.
Now it may be that you only have a few cows and do it as a hobby, but there is a point at which your cows should provide you with a reasonable living, which represents a return for your investment and your time.
The problem is that food is not valued, not are the people who work in the food industry.
If you look at the whole food chain the majority are on minimum wage, from European cow men, through the abattoirs , processing, shelf stackers, pickers, many farm works, all sold down the river on the altar of low priced food, not cheap because the cost to the environment and human is enormous.

 

[7610 super q]

Yes, sad state of affaires when another job has to prop up food production income. I'm a hobby farmer, but do it purely to remain in a nice house, in a nice spot. Also, owning a bit of land enables me to indulge in my proper hobby of driving elderly blue tractors. I sure as hell wouldn't farm just for the sake of farming.

 

[som farmer]

it's the loss of the connection between food and farming, cleverly done by the 'trade'. The most basic of those facts, is people cannot live without us, majority would laugh in your face, if told that. But all guvs, have a need to keep food prices down, so people have more money to spend on 'manufactured' stuffs, they can tax, the other fact, hungry people tend to bring a change of guv. Other than shortages, for various reasons, i cannot really see any guv wanting basic food prices to rise, subs used to 'help', but no longer will they be tied to food production. Not a particularly nice, or comforting view, but probably right. So what can we do, massive big industrial geared farms, will be ok, smaller family farms will survive, basically through thriftiness, it's the ones between, that may suffer, labour, machinery costs, welfare, etc, all cause a greater effect than either 'end', they do not have the economics of scale, the guv is pushing out grants, 'to modernise', and become more 'efficient', those grants come at a cost, usually 60%, that's the money we have to find to 'use' them. These grants are incredibly efficient, especially when it comes to the 'technology' ones, they are, in effect, a 60% grant to those technological firms, with the cream being a guaranteed customer base, the end result being more production of a product, with no price increase, win win for guv, cheap food, and a massive handout to high tech firms. The only way we can increase our profit base, is to decrease our cost of production, very difficult to do, but is the only way we can increase, in the middle bulk mkt, niche goods are great, but a limited mkt. The only glimmer of light i can see for price rises, is, covid, and brexit, and the french action at dover/calais, it just might focus guv minds on the supply chain, and home production. Despite being rather pessimistic over this, farmers have always found ways to live/keep going, and will continue to do so, it is the middle farmers that will have to be extra inventive.

 

[DrWazzock]

Costs have risen, commodity prices haven't kept up. Bigger farmers can spread these costs over more acres so can still make a profit, even if it is as a smaller profit.
Smaller farmers such as myself can't spread these costs as thinly so sooner or later they eat up all the profit.
You can stop investing and run old kit and sheds etc for so long but sooner or later you get some big bills for repairs and breakdowns then your cash reserves run down and its game over. You can get rid of family labour and try to do it all yourself but sooner or later there is just too much to do.
That's how it's going here really.
Fortunately my Mrs has a huge (by comparison to my farming income) civil service pension so we aren't desperate.
And tellingly, over the last 24 months when we grew much less winter cereals and no oilseed rape we actually made more money, because we incurred much lower expenditure. Every time you try to produce anything agricultural you just seem to incur cost after cost and you are lucky if it wipes its face.
How folks survive who pay rents, borrow money or get contractors in, I really don't know.
What actually works for me now is zero till combinables mostly spring drilled.
Cultivations? Forget it, just too expensive in soil wearing parts, time and diesel. Even plough points are a hell of a price now.
Autumn sown crops - too big a spend on chems before spring, can't drill into big mats of chopped straw. Slugs, blackgrass, BYDV, brome, pissing about with the sprayer in the wet.
Livestock - too much labour required, and machinery for forage, muck, and additional QA costs, vets bills etc.
No, it will be largely direct drilling with maybe a post harvest scuffle from now on. Keep it simple so we can blitz it at drilling and harvest then do something else the rest of the time. It might even go to monoculture spring barley. Everybody says you need a mix of crops but in my experience that only screws the job even more. Last summer the wheat was ready at same time as the spring barley. All we achieved by having two different crops was increased costs due to segregation etc. The wheat did 1.5t per acre and was knadgered by take all and fusarium. The spring barley did 3 tons and was a nice sample seemingly unaffected by the spring drought.
Do what works easily, not what the books and experts say should work. Barley grows here. Wheat doesn't. Barley barley barley, spring not winter.

 

[DrWazzock]

I really have to be more risk averse now. Beet, beans, wheat, oats have let us down too many times. You can also feel it as soon as you have ordered the seed. Not enough actives to keep the weeds down, light land burns up too early. WTF do we keep growing them again? There is no payment just because we tried.

 

[Bury the Trash]

I really have to be more risk averse now. Beet, beans, wheat, oats have let us down too many times. You can also feel it as soon as you have ordered the seed. Not enough actives to keep the weeds down, light land burns up too early. WTF do we keep growing them again? There is no payment just because we tried.

Oats? Eh ?
Surely a black sheep in that group
They have to be one the least risky seeds to sow so tolerant all sorts of soil and fertility ......non high maintenance without a doubt.
I ♡ oats

 

[DrWazzock]

Oats? Eh ?
Surely a black sherp in that group
They have to be one the least risky seed to sow so tolerant all sorts of soil and fertility ......non high maintenance without a doubt.

Never fill here. Dry spring on sand and you just blow empty husks out the back at harvest. Ok about 1 year in 5 if you get any decent rainfall through spring.

 

[DrWazzock]

Somebody remind me of the price of feed oats? £115 per ton ish? How can that ever add up.

 

[Bury the Trash]

Never fill here. Dry spring on sand and you just blow empty husks out the back at harvest. Ok about 1 year in 5 if you get any decent rainfall through spring.

Oh, not so good then.


We grow them to feed not as cash crop.

 

[DrWazzock]

So much depends on your circumstances, location, soil type, rainfall, availability of cheap enthusiastic labour etc but here we score fairly low on all those fronts now so the best crop for this poor old land is spring barley. It’s never broken records but it’s never let us down. I’ll leave the “model farms” to those who enjoy throwing money at them and working all hours for nothing but here now it has to be simple cheap, stand a reasonable chance of actually working in reality, not fantasy. So it will be more and more spring barley till it’s 100%. No straw removed. Build humus, keep it clean.

 

[Still Farming]

It depends on your profit over the past 3 years in most parts of the world.
Unsure about HMRC but if you can generate enough income via business activities each year to be viable, then it's not a hobby.

In general terms, a hobby cannot afford to pay the CEO where a business can, ie you're not subsidising it by giving your time and input for a discounted rate.
Many small businesses are technically hobbies in their startup phase (that 3 year period) and don't progress far past it before either closing down or adapting

The lot over here class you as " Hobby" if you make losses?
How the F can you decide your future farming self employed income?

 

[DrWazzock]

And don’t get me wrong, I like mixed farms. I like cattle, sheep, different crops and variety. But I have to be realistic and practical. To fit modern markets and costs then to me specialisation and monoculture where possible is the way forward. It’s no accident that when they clear the rain forest they drill huge blocks of monoculture arable. They don’t split it into 200 acre mixed farms. They are out to maximise profit pure and simple, maybe short termism but not the sort of fantasy model farm favoured by mad King George III.

 

[pgk]

Our accountant reckoned that unless you were producing and therefore selling literally nothing then you were a commercial farmer in their eyes. It could be as little as a handful of lambs a year.

In my case I’m not looking to draw a wage from the farm, it’s an interest which at the same time builds a decent capital asset in the livestock and the infrastructure which is all paid for by the farm. I just supplied the seed capital and ongoing labour.

EDIT: and it also provides an excellentplace to live and raise a family

I should look for a new accountant.

 

[Henarar]

Pretty much the same with me although my "full time" job is contracting for other people which does have the added benefit of being able to own /use machinery we could never justify.
One thing that frustrates me is seeing long established farmers with similar stock numbers to me who just make their jobs fill the day and are "busy"
If it takes you an hour or all day it doesn't make your cattle, sheep or milk worth any more.

perhaps they are happy with what they get from the farm

 

[DrWazzock]

perhaps they are happy with what they get from the farm

If you enjoy it and you cover all of your costs then there is nothing wrong with that. I have known many old farmers who have subsidised a few sheep or cattle with their pension but had years of pleasure doing so. It’s a free country. Let them enjoy it while they still can.

 

[pgk]

It depends on your profit over the past 3 years in most parts of the world.
Unsure about HMRC but if you can generate enough income via business activities each year to be viable, then it's not a hobby.

In general terms, a hobby cannot afford to pay the CEO where a business can, ie you're not subsidising it by giving your time and input for a discounted rate.
Many small businesses are technically hobbies in their startup phase (that 3 year period) and don't progress far past it before either closing down or adapting

For agricultural businesses in UK 5 years usually or 10 years for pedigree operations, where there is no legislative restriction on offsetting farming losses against other income. After that one has to carry forward your farming losses which can be set against

perhaps they are happy with what they get from the farm

Friend of mine has done that from college, c35years, milked 26 cows and fattened all calves til his dad passed on. Now fattens around 20 steers, makes c8000 lovely small bales of hay and has a handful of horses on livery. Mind you his wife has always worked as a planning officer so he really has the best of all worlds.