British Breeds(of cattle) more suitable for commercial herds after B####t

[Davy_g]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef shorthorn cows with exceptional results. Also maternal blonde sired cows are proving their worth crossed to Angus and Hereford.

 

[Woolless]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef short gown cows with exceptional results. Also blonde sired cows are proving their worth crosses to Angus and Hereford.

I'm not so sure that the fully beef bred cow will be marginalised, my guess is the dairy x cows will reduce in number as suckler herds are pushed onto harder ground.

Very good point regarding how continentals and natives can compliment each other, particularly when the EUROP grid is in use. Regarding your Blondes, would I be correct to think that they would produce a slightly smaller but shapier carcass than a typical Charollais out of the same cow? The reducing upper optimum level of carcass weight must have folks being a bit warier of the Charollais?

 

[liammogs]

So basically come April 1st, all continental cattle are not only going to be double tagged, Tb tested etc ......but there going to need to apply for a visa to stay in the country?

 

[Whitepeak]

I’m sure you’re correct in your area but are there not plenty of dairy cross Angus going through? Popularity probably depends very much on where you live?

Yeah quite a few Angus and Herefords in the area, but like you say most would be dairy bred. The vast majority of suckler bred cattle in the area are Lim, then BB and to a lesser extent Blonde, Charolais and Sim.

 

[Whitepeak]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef shorthorn cows with exceptional results. Also maternal blonde sired cows are proving their worth crossed to Angus and Hereford.

I agree 100% Davy

 

[Cowgirl]

I won't speak for other countries, but most of NZ Angus genetics have some US influence. However this is generally restricted to no more than 50% as NZ's use is mainly maternal, need for hardiness while restricting adult size. Too much US blood reduces these vital traits essential for NZ's hill based breeding herds.
There are several Angus lines totally free from US influence. The most noticeable is the Wai Group Angus http://anguswaigroup.co.nz/ which is a group breeding scheme using intensive selection based on pure Angus genetics that had been in NZ for around 100 years prior to their efforts. They have a reputation for being very good cows on hard hill country.
Herefords had a bad rap for cancer eye in NZ. Today's NZ Herefords have either a dark patch around each eye, or they have dark pigmented eyelids. Some talk of Simental blood there, but I remember breeders tackling this problem before the introduction of continental breeds to NZ.
I doubt if any herds remain that resemble the old Aberdeen Angus or Herefords imported over the years prior to US semen imports and the improved (for modern NZ farming requirements) strains.

South Devons and Red Devons are present in NZ, but only for terminal use.
Highland cattle and Belted Galloways are popular on lifestyle blocks.
Belties and Murray Greys are preferred as a terminal by dairy farmers with Jersey and Kiwi Cross first calvers.
Welsh Blacks are about in very small numbers, also regarded as very hardy.

Very interesting thank you - especially the link to the Angus herd.
Just one or two things - people tend to generalise about breeds but there have always been differing types and sizes in Herefords and Angus, and selection is quite possible for desirable traits, as we are trying to do in our own herd, without introduction of continental bloodlines.
There is Diluter gene in NZ Herefords, almost certainly from Simmental. Also many Traditional OP Herefords have pigmentation around the eye, and have always had. The "goggle eyes" though probably came from Simmental. A lot of cancer eye in Herefords was in my view inherited and has now been got rid of in most countries I think although it is always used as a stick to beat Herefords with.

 

[Cowgirl]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef shorthorn cows with exceptional results. Also maternal blonde sired cows are proving their worth crossed to Angus and Hereford.

Very good post. I suppose it all depends on whether the beef industry in UK continues to use weight and the EUROP grid and ignore marbling and eating quality. If it does, then presumably nothing will change regarding the type of animal currently used, although I think cattle numbers will fall, especially if demand for beef decreases.

 

[tinsheet]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef shorthorn cows with exceptional results. Also maternal blonde sired cows are proving their worth crossed to Angus and Hereford.

I think it may go the other way regarding suckler cows, more and more to breed their own replacements due to disease health status etc, mother always used to buy SIM heifers or Hereford or Angus heifers as calves for replacement cows, and bloody good cows they made to be fair, but doing that nowadays would be like Russian roulette!. Though a lot probably still do it.
Just my thoughts.

 

[tinsheet]

Enjoying this thread, people with different views ideas etc,
And people not falling out!





Yet!.

 

[Gulli]

I think it may go the other way regarding suckler cows, more and more to breed their own replacements due to disease health status etc, mother always used to buy SIM heifers or Hereford or Angus heifers as calves for replacement cows, and bloody good cows they made to be fair, but doing that nowadays would be like Russian roulette!. Though a lot probably still do it.
Just my thoughts.

The majority of our replacements come from bought in calves. Nothing rouletteish about it, they are bought to be reared and sold as stores and we pick the best out to bull on the basis that they've made it that far with no disease.
Reckon it's much more of a lottery buying bulling heifers as replacements.

My only gripe with it is I think we could be making bigger gains in the herd by keeping our home bred heifers.

Majority here are Hereford or Angus x with the odd simmental thrown in. Everything goes to a Hereford bull but that's partly because I breed them too

 

[M-J-G]

Interesting thread. I did get a bit lost in the middle but my thoughts. Beef production will continue to be influenced by the waste from the dairy industry ie bull beef (which deserves no more of my time) and either first cross blue x Holstein or native x Holstein cows.
I tend to think that the true beef suckler cow with an eighth or less dairy influence will unfortunately become marginalised over time.
The first cross cow requires confirmation and fat cover. For the blue sired cow you will need a native sire and the native sired cow you will need a continental.
So not much changes, we all believe in the attributes of our chosen cattle but the natives and continentals cross exceptionally well. A lot of natives go fat off grass way before they reach decent killing weights, cross them to the right continental and you get an in demand carcass.
Hard continentals can require too much hard feed to make fat grades but are at weight off forage much younger, cross to a fatty native and again you have a desirable product. I don’t see the conflict.
A lot of breeders in NI are using a terminal blonde on beef shorthorn cows with exceptional results. Also maternal blonde sired cows are proving their worth crossed to Angus and Hereford.

I'm not sure if a Holstein x cow will be used in more marginal places, but a BB X Holstein cow is unlikely to have any place in an upland system, as they are about the two leanest breeds that you could cross together.

No doubt natives can have a part to play, I have used them myself with success, but without continental influence they certainly are an extremely mixed bag.

 

[M-J-G]

Enjoying this thread, people with different views ideas etc,
And people not falling out!





Yet!.

As the thread has developed it has been mainly balanced individuals that have been taking part.
That usually helps.

 

[beefandsleep]

As the thread has developed it has been mainly balanced individuals that have been taking part.
That usually helps.

Mainly? [emoji23].

 

[Samcowman]

Within the current grading system the continental (choose your breed as there’s good and bad in all breeds) x Angus is a good way to go. Going forward here I am going to be using Charolais, Angus and Sim or Fleckvieh. All polled.
If the grading system were to change I would expect a national change more towards natives.

 

[Davy_g]

Regarding your Blondes, would I be correct to think that they would produce a slightly smaller but shapier carcass than a typical Charollais out of the same cow? The reducing upper optimum level of carcass weight must have folks being a bit warier of the Charollais?

Very much so. Weight still pays for selling weaned calves and even stores. Finishers are not interested in stores with too much growth and the factories do not pay a penny for all the space beneath the belly.

 

[M-J-G]

I'm not so sure that the fully beef bred cow will be marginalised, my guess is the dairy x cows will reduce in number as suckler herds are pushed onto harder ground.

Very good point regarding how continentals and natives can compliment each other, particularly when the EUROP grid is in use. Regarding your Blondes, would I be correct to think that they would produce a slightly smaller but shapier carcass than a typical Charollais out of the same cow? The reducing upper optimum level of carcass weight must have folks being a bit warier of the Charollais?

Charolais bulls are still one of the best sellers, as are Charolais stores, despite the cuts in carcass weight.

 

[CharcoalWally]

Charolais bulls are still one of the best sellers, as are Charolais stores, despite the cuts in carcass weight.

That's what I was thinking.

All to do with the speed of hitting these target weights. If anything, last trading season saw even bigger price differential for cattle that were heaviest youngest.

 

[M-J-G]

That's what I was thinking.

All to do with the speed of hitting these target weights. If anything, last trading season saw even bigger price differential for cattle that were heaviest youngest.

Easily fleshed cattle will finish within weight parameters without problems.

I'm not sure what the fuss is about.

I'm also not sure why there is do much fuss about finishing off grass, many of our main competitors finish on grain.

Is an animal going off the farm at 16 months old with the cost of one winter and a tonne of barley against it so much worse that an animal at 26 or 27 months with 2 winters and the extra land and labour cost allocation?

Finishers also like quick turnover, 2 batches of cattle through a unit per annum reduces overheads per animal.

The grainy lean types of cattle may fall by the wayside, but easily fleshed types are more likely to have a place.

 

[DrWazzock]

Doesn't it depend on your farm? We found native breeds got too fat and produced too much milk here in the east on rotational clover leys. We would be better off with continentals that put on more weight before getting too fat and don't produce loads of milk. So we are trying lim X. The markets here want lim or BB as do the store men. I'd rather eat native with marbling fat etc but I have to provide what the abbatoirs want, and it ain't natives, by and large, unless you are in a scheme that pays a bonus. If you aren't in such a scheme then I'd forget natives on a commercial scale. Been there.

 

[beefandsleep]

Very much so. Weight still pays for selling weaned calves and even stores. Finishers are not interested in stores with too much growth and the factories do not pay a penny for all the space beneath the belly.

Finishers are very interested in cattle with growth. You cannot have “too much growth”.
Weight limits are not a problem, you just kill them when they weigh enough. Every 450kg carcass was 400kg one day. I love Charolais, they are fast growing and easy fleshing in the main, good temperament too. I would have all Charolais if I could buy them right but they are generally at a significant premium, which tells you all you need to know.