Broadway Star conundrum

[Feldspar]

Still having a large debate with myself about how much of the wheat to do with Broadway Star (Avocet actually). For two years now I have not spotted both wild oats and meadow brome despite walking fields what I thought was quite carefully. Walked round with an experienced agronomist and we agreed last year to blanket spray Broadway Star because of these two weeds and also because it's an easy coverall for most BLWs (except thistles?). Having walked the wheat this year I have found one wild oat (but I really don't trust myself to spot these) and some brome but really not a lot (none in some fields and some in known problem fields). Yet again I find myself reluctant to spend £30/ha plus spray costs on some fields where I can't find any of the weeds that I'm worried about especially when our wheat is not going to yield very well. That said, to make the same mistake three years in a row would be fairly unforgivable. We have fallow following all wheat next year, but then again I am very keen to really hammer brome which has only become a problem in the last few years and was almost entirely absent before then (partly due to direct drilling rather than ploughing). Also unsure whether I should put 1l CCC in as well to preserve tillers given PGR effect of BWS. Thoughts on a postcard please!

 

[bobk]

BS is good on brome , not so on WO , imo ,

 

[fudge]

As a Luddite I wouldn’t normally suggest this, but weed mapping is something we should be doing. Blanket spraying grass weeds with everything is too expensive IMO.

 

[Brisel]

Atlantis has a residual effect. I don't know about Broadway Star. Might be worth asking your area NIAB TAG agronomist to see if they've done any work on this? @Fromebridge

Like you, @Feldspar I have much lower weed populations this year but I'm not taking the chance where I've found some. This has been complicated by rolling some wheat fields which will inevitably mean another flush at some point. I'm tempted in later sown fields to wait and see - Topik and Starane XL/Spitfire type products cost nearly the same but can be used later, so you'd be able to do wild oats ok but none of the more aggressive grass weeds like ryegrass, brome and blackgrass.

 

[Feldspar]

Atlantis has a residual effect. I don't know about Broadway Star. Might be worth asking your area NIAB TAG agronomist to see if they've done any work on this? @Fromebridge

Like you, @Feldspar I have much lower weed populations this year but I'm not taking the chance where I've found some. This has been complicated by rolling some wheat fields which will inevitably mean another flush at some point. I'm tempted in later sown fields to wait and see - Topik and Starane XL/Spitfire type products cost nearly the same but can be used later, so you'd be able to do wild oats ok but none of the more aggressive grass weeds like ryegrass, brome and blackgrass.

Are you expecting another flush of BLW or wild oats with the next rain? It would be very annoying to have to go and do either of these again.

 

[Clive]

Have you done any herbicides yet ? (autumn)

I have this debate with myself / Agronomist every year and usually end up doing it, as our only herbicide on wheat the cost is reasonable for a pretty much 100% job and as you say it growth regs as well

even if you walk every acre you probably missed some Broome and oats !

 

[Feldspar]

Have you done any herbicides yet ? (autumn)

I have this debate with myself / Agronomist every year and usually end up doing it, as our only herbicide on wheat the cost is reasonable for a pretty much 100% job and as you say it growth regs as well

even if you walk every acre you probably missed some Broome and oats !

Crystal + DFF pre-em but we haven't done any Avadex that we would normally do. That normally makes the decision harder because you aren't even clearing up that many wild oats having done Avadex. Against that, we knew we had good wheat crops with lots of potential. This year we haven't spend the £37/ha on Avadex, but then we haven't got anything like the yield potential of last year to justify the spend.

We have nothing even vaguely approaching levels that will affect yield. Not even near. And we do have a fallow next year which will pick up shed weed seeds. But I am very keen to stop brome becoming a problem over the whole farm. I have worried more about it over the last few years than black-grass which is nothing like as bad as it was 5+ years ago.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Personally I'd do it. Unless you know for sure of fields that have no brome/ wild oat history.

 

[Feldspar]

Personally I'd do it. Unless you know for sure of fields that have no brome/ wild oat history.

Every year I try harder and really try to walk fields well. I have just had to admit to myself, particularly with wild oats, that I just cannot spot them reliably at this growth stage unless there's masses of them. Brome I'm better at, and I won't miss anything other than a smattering, but a smattering is still a big problem to stop a weed establishing that we never really had before.

You are in tune with the most experienced agronomist I've spoken to. He said count fields off your list rather than adding them to an otherwise blank to-do list.

 

[juke]

Have you done any herbicides yet ? (autumn)

I have this debate with myself / Agronomist every year and usually end up doing it, as our only herbicide on wheat the cost is reasonable for a pretty much 100% job and as you say it growth regs as well

even if you walk every acre you probably missed some Broome and oats !

Would it be best to only use Broadway star or palio on their own ? From the corteva information they say it should be used with a residual, I'm going to assume this is an autumn pre em .
Not a criticism, Purley a question

 

[Feldspar]

Have you done any herbicides yet ? (autumn)

I have this debate with myself / Agronomist every year and usually end up doing it, as our only herbicide on wheat the cost is reasonable for a pretty much 100% job and as you say it growth regs as well

even if you walk every acre you probably missed some Broome and oats !

Only thing against that now is that we now have confirmed resistance in brome to Broadway Star. It will go the way that Atlantis did. I want to use it wisely, but I'm not sure if that means using it now to nail low levels of brome before they become a problem.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Every year I try harder and really try to walk fields well. I have just had to admit to myself, particularly with wild oats, that I just cannot spot them reliably at this growth stage unless there's masses of them. Brome I'm better at, and I won't miss anything other than a smattering, but a smattering is still a big problem to stop a weed establishing that we never really had before.

You are in tune with the most experienced agronomist I've spoken to. He said count fields off your list rather than adding them to an otherwise blank to-do list.

No i mean at harvest have you seen any in fields youve not sprayed Bs in the past. Youre probably only spending £15 ha more than on a cheaper spray

 

[Cowcorn]

BS is good on brome , not so on WO , imo ,

Welcome back !

 

[Hindsight]

Only thing against that now is that we now have confirmed resistance in brome to Broadway Star. It will go the way that Atlantis did. I want to use it wisely, but I'm not sure if that means using it now to nail low levels of brome before they become a problem.

If you decide to spray suggest that you leave an untreated tramline in each field (or a few depending on how many fields treated). Mark up that tramline now. Walk it thoroughly and write down what you view is of the population of Oats and Brome etc. Ask or compel your agronomist to do same - separately to you, so you can assess his accuracy compared to yours - you maybe surprised (and CV19 compliant then!) And then in June assess the untreated tramline against the rest of field and your observation notes. And make maps of each field. It is the only way you are going to learn. And it is no point relying on your agronomists. They will be no better than you at walking and assessing. Unless they have had the benefit of seeing the field in previous years untreated.

Anyway, that would be my advice.

 

[Feldspar]

No i mean at harvest have you seen any in fields youve not sprayed Bs in the past. Youre probably only spending £15 ha more than on a cheaper spray

In general nearly all fields will have had wild oats in the past. My father used to be pretty lax on his control of them. Brome is a much more recent thing. There are only a few fields which have seen significant seed return, but a number more where I've seen the odd plant here and there and often in quite unexpected places.

 

[Feldspar]

If you decide to spray suggest that you leave an untreated tramline in each field (or a few depending on how many fields treated). Mark up that tramline now. Walk it thoroughly and write down what you view is of the population of Oats and Brome etc. Ask or compel your agronomist to do same - separately to you, so you can assess his accuracy compared to yours - you maybe surprised (and CV19 compliant then!) And then in June assess the untreated tramline against the rest of field and your observation notes. And make maps of each field. It is the only way you are going to learn. And it is no point relying on your agronomists. They will be no better than you at walking and assessing. Unless they have had the benefit of seeing the field in previous years untreated.

Anyway, that would be my advice.

I sort of did that last year. Infuriated the sprayer drivers by tailoring the mix on a field by field (and sometimes even sub-field) basis. In the end it all got rather complicated and the fields I thought were borderline ended up being on the 'definitely should have sprayed' list. Having tried roguing gangs for a few years now I find it a rather time consuming, slow, expensive and not 100% effective job. There's a place for it, but I resolved to use stuff out of a can more after the last few years of roguing.

I also walked farms that an agronomist had walked and found more than they did (because I knew the history of the patches / fields better). Despite spending a lot more time in the fields than them and walking fields multiple times I still missed a lot (especially in spring barley last year – I did a fairly good job on WO in the wheat). Other mistake has been assuming winter barley wouldn't have too much in and then ending up spraying bits off.

 

[Hindsight]

I sort of did that last year. Infuriated the sprayer drivers by tailoring the mix on a field by field (and sometimes even sub-field) basis. In the end it all got rather complicated and the fields I thought were borderline ended up being on the 'definitely should have sprayed' list. Having tried roguing gangs for a few years now I find it a rather time consuming, slow, expensive and not 100% effective job. There's a place for it, but I resolved to use stuff out of a can more after the last few years of roguing.

I also walked farms that an agronomist had walked and found more than they did (because I knew the history of the patches / fields better). Despite spending a lot more time in the fields than them and walking fields multiple times I still missed a lot (especially in spring barley last year – I did a fairly good job on WO in the wheat). Other mistake has been assuming winter barley wouldn't have too much in and then ending up spraying bits off.

Yep, been there and have the T shirt. And why (in fear of my life of starting a anti trade agronomist rebuke) many agronomists routinely recommend treatment. Farmers have short memories when they say 'don't spend unless you have to, and we have never seen many oats in that field' All agronomist need to tape record those words. And it still doesn't count! Soonest way to get the sack - for a proper agronomist. As an agronomist friend once told me - he had never been sacked for spending to much - just told off, but definitely sacked for not spending enough - wild oats and thistles visible in June when neighbours passing being main causes. Hey ho.

 

[Hindsight]

I sort of did that last year. Infuriated the sprayer drivers by tailoring the mix on a field by field (and sometimes even sub-field) basis. In the end it all got rather complicated and the fields I thought were borderline ended up being on the 'definitely should have sprayed' list. Having tried roguing gangs for a few years now I find it a rather time consuming, slow, expensive and not 100% effective job. There's a place for it, but I resolved to use stuff out of a can more after the last few years of roguing.

I also walked farms that an agronomist had walked and found more than they did (because I knew the history of the patches / fields better). Despite spending a lot more time in the fields than them and walking fields multiple times I still missed a lot (especially in spring barley last year – I did a fairly good job on WO in the wheat). Other mistake has been assuming winter barley wouldn't have too much in and then ending up spraying bits off.

We have a few keen roguing farmer up here in Lincolnshire. Some high profile names. I am none to sure myself. Expensive. Having done a bit of roguing it is a skilled job and a job requiring total dedication - to ensure all tillers removed. My view is I would rather roll that spend into accruing it against a spring cereal crop (barley or oats) and the potentially lower gross margin. As I consider the spring crop is a better spend of the money that roguing. But each to their own.

 

[tw15]

Got 1 field of early Nov sown ww to do with Broadway star and 1 field of Dec sown ww to do with atlantis Rolled 5- 6 days ago and liquid fert on today so going to do them after Easter that should be then 7 days from fert passes should be ok what do others think.

 

[deleted user 837354]

If the crop is slow/backward or sparse then consider the residual element now. If the crop is covered in and growing nice then forget residual treatment now.

You can always do topik/axial later if you decide there is too much oat in it. Not so with brome unfortunately.

Would put CCC with Broadway no problem but would sooner do separate herbicide pass if a T0 is/was going on- most people probably not bothered this year.

You do need a heck of a lot of wild oats to make a big yield difference but they do proliferate like the plague.