Bulling heifer dilemma

[top char]

Everyone has their own systems, different breeds suits different farms/stockman, and their can be many variations in different breeds cant there. We have lost calves in the past when we have not been present at the birth, so after having the cameras for a few years now we try and watch almost every birth no matter what time of day it is, to know exactly whats going on, then travel to the farm if required. I dont class that as being a bad stockman, just i care about my animals and it makes me sick if i lose a calf and i could have maybe prevented it. What really annoys me is when people blame bulls or any other bizzare excuse under the sun for hard calvings/losses, when its obvious its down to their own bad management of overly fat cows, cant be bothered monitoring them or whatever else. Thats bad stockamship in my eyes.

 

[Top Tip.]

do you think any farmers do just leave them to get on with it ?

Off course they do,if you have genuine hill cows. I have seen calves 3 or 4 days old before I saw them if it was one of these cows that was very maternal she would hide it. I learnt as long as she was sooked you were just wasting your time hunting for it.

 

[top char]

Off course they do,if you have genuine hill cows. I have seen calves 3 or 4 days old before I saw them if it was one of these cows that was very maternal she would hide it. I learnt as long as she was sooked you were just wasting your time hunting for it.

The input into keeping a hill cow is obviously far less, there for slightly less pressure to make sure every calf survives.

 

[Henarar]

No , she wasn't culled. She reared a twin that was lifted from another cow.

I wouldn't have seen any reason to cull her as the dead calf wasn't due to being oversized or carried for far too many days, it was simply DOA for reasons unknown, plus there was a calf for her to rear.

fair enough I wasn't advocating that you should

 

[Henarar]

The input into keeping a hill cow is obviously far less, there for slightly less pressure to make sure every calf survives.

or are they more likely to survive anyway ?
do you lose any calves @Top Tip. ?

 

[Top Tip.]

The input into keeping a hill cow is obviously far less, there for slightly less pressure to make sure every calf survives.

That is true but it is down to practicalities really if that cow has a couple of thousand acres of hill to roam or as was the case with us a thousand acres of conifer plantation to hide in , if she wants to hide it you can (and I have) spend days looking for a calve.

 

[dannewhouse]

Wouldn't guarntee it Martin many can feed U/E grade cattle into Rs and the good guys can turn the R grades to U !

I know what your saying Angus x fr cow put to Simm , bull calf always U , easy calving and milk

what do you mean by some can feed cattle better or worse than others. do you mean some don't push them hard enough with corn and others push too hard?
I have always been told that within reason the muscling is genetic and the fat score is what you put on?

 

[Top Tip.]

or are they more likely to survive anyway ?
do you lose any calves @Top Tip. ?

They are more likely to survive because these cows will be leaner and fitter and therefor more likely to spit out a calve. I am no longer on that hill farm,have come down the hill a bit and all the cows are calved inside,much less sleep but easier in most other ways. I do lose calves at calving time anybody who says they never lose a calve is either a liar or very very lucky.

 

[Northeastfarmer]

what do you mean by some can feed cattle better or worse than others. do you mean some don't push them hard enough with corn and others push too hard?
I have always been told that within reason the muscling is genetic and the fat score is what you put on?

You'd have to be pretty bad at your job to turn an E grade cattle into an R
Plenty spoil U and R grade cattle fat wise

 

[dannewhouse]

You'd have to be pretty bad at your job to turn an E grade cattle into an R
Plenty spoil U and R grade cattle fat wise

by just getting them too fat so when they are graded it drops them basically?
just wondered if there were "better" and "worse" ways of feeding every little helps!

 

[Northeastfarmer]

by just getting them too fat so when they are graded it drops them basically?
just wondered if there were "better" and "worse" ways of feeding every little helps!

It's a lot easier to spoil badly bred cattle than good ones...you have to get their diet right or you're just pissing into the wind

 

[jamesy]

They are more likely to survive because these cows will be leaner and fitter and therefor more likely to spit out a calve. I am no longer on that hill farm,have come down the hill a bit and all the cows are calved inside,much less sleep but easier in most other ways. I do lose calves at calving time anybody who says they never lose a calve is either a liar or very very lucky.

Just a liar!

 

[CharcoalWally]

Just a liar!

Or maybe lucky!!

 

[AGN76]

I know this is completely off on a tangent from my OP but regarding calving easy and getting calves born and reared per 100 cows.
Which bull would be the one of choice?

I would pick both, if you know your cows you can marry the right bull to the right cow.

I calved this bull with no issues by picking a cow that I know would take it. I would never in a million years blanket use him across the herd.

 

[hillman]

what do you mean by some can feed cattle better or worse than others. do you mean some don't push them hard enough with corn and others push too hard?
I have always been told that within reason the muscling is genetic and the fat score is what you put on?

Some guys that buy the good shaped cattle don't know how to feed them correctly and likewise the good cattle fatttners can't spot the potential in animals that haven't been pushed as hard as weanlings

 

[Lovegoodstock]

Well @Lovegoodstock I did have another child (with some fear and trepidation). It's amazing the way that maternal instinct overcomes fear.
I was just suggesting that men may not understand the suffering involved, since they can never experience it, and although the cow, remarkable creature that she is, may not show how much pain she is in, it doesn't mean that it shouldn't be a consideration. Accidents can happen and we have to deal with them - I just feel that maybe we should try to improve the odds in the cow's favour by our breeding decisions. And as to culling - why would you cull the cow if the reason she had a problem was the type of bull she was mated to? Of course she may be so damaged inside that there is no alternative.
And to answer the OP's question, if either he or his father has a gut feeling that these heifers are not suitable for breeding, perhaps he should listen to that intuition and not do it.

That is why most of my bulls I have used bloodlines of similar nature and the large majority whilst muscle up greatly are calved with ease, I wouldn't cull the cow as I had to calve her it is others that have said they would, normally pelvic measure my heifers, odd bunches I don't depending on time of the year, so it is not the reason the choice of bull is the culling reason

 

[Lovegoodstock]

I wonder post Brexit in the land of the free will guys spend all night calving and then get calf up to suckle and hope to top the market still

I used to like a well shaped calf rear end wise , we had one bull always threw 2 double muscles from 2 cows , but you spent an age getting them up to suck etc
The guys born normal got up and went away , nearly always where heavier and at the end of the day weight pays , my normal v muscled 20p a kilo was it with that effort for a rosette!

Why will the loss of single farm payment change their style of farming? I keep sfp out of my farming business but no reason to change sucklers, its not as if its like suckler premium scheme where you had to have the numbers, not that we did as for our sins we milked and for some reason despite then having 150 odd sucklers weren't entitled to it, not that im bitter

 

[Henarar]

Why will the loss of single farm payment change their style of farming? I keep sfp out of my farming business but no reason to change sucklers, its not as if its like suckler premium scheme where you had to have the numbers, not that we did as for our sins we milked and for some reason despite then having 150 odd sucklers weren't entitled to it, not that im bitter

will the finishers still want to buy your type of cattle though ?
I don't see why not
what do others think ?

 

[Lovegoodstock]

I would think so, hope so, one guy has a great little contract with a couple of butchers, whilst only 4 a month where he has no upper weight limit but have to kill at a 4l, he pays a fair whack for some of my best. Wondered how he got out of trouble with them but then learned that, amazing what 950 beasts come to, sveral hundred over 2k, heaven, what a shame all fat cattle couldn't gross that. Others like cattle that finish quick, cattle where your feeding high killing out % for efficiency, and ones where they develop a good loin, big fault of the breeds I use but hopefully select for right bulls and they keep coming back.... hopefully!!

 

[hillman]

Why will the loss of single farm payment change their style of farming? I keep sfp out of my farming business but no reason to change sucklers, its not as if its like suckler premium scheme where you had to have the numbers, not that we did as for our sins we milked and for some reason despite then having 150 odd sucklers weren't entitled to it, not that im bitter

At the moment you have a goodish end price , but with Brexit and by sounds of it more free trade which will mean more imports that price will be under pressure , with a nock on effect down the line ...will you still be able to afford that extra time or do you think there will be enough niche markets for classey cattle ?
A lot of what ifs I know !