Calcifert vs ground limestone

[Clive]

I know this will be a controversial thread with the lime suppliers but ................ ( I'm posting for a sense check)


After a bit of testing we have a few fileds where i need to lift pH by 1 point (5.5 - 6.5) I priced up some top quality Derbyshire ground limestone at £28/t delivered - its nv55 and applictaion rate would be 8-9t /ha to achive the 1 point pH change = £238/ha .......... thats a rather scary number

Calcifert lime application rate to achieve the same 1 point ph change is 600kgs /ha - its £151/t. = £ 90.60/ha


No application included in either costs as we can do VRA bulk or prilled ourselves


This cost difference is a shocker frankly ? what am I missing ? If paying for bulk application the gap would be even greater I know some don't believe that lower rates of finer product can achieve the same as a bulk but my experience of using it to maintain ph and supply Ca or Mg using low rates in crop (circa 100kgs /ha). seem to suggest it does what it claims. ? I would be Interested to hear from others that have used the product


@Cab-over Pete i know you wont like this thread or think i'm maybe baiting you but I assure that's not the intention, I'm posting this to both sense check the decisson i 'm making right now and try to understand why )on the face of it). the bulk product seems so much more expensive when TBH I thought it would have been the cheaper option ?

 

[davidroberts30]

your baiting
from experience the 600kgs a heactare is bullshyte!!
it will lift ph by 0.1
work out the costs using 2ton/a 5t/h of granlime

 

[davidroberts30]

how can 200kgs of a product thats identical to ground, equal 2ton
it cant

kid yourself if you want its your money but ive used prilled for 2 years running on a neighbours field
start ph 5.5
2nd year 5.6
3rd year 5.6
and that was using 300kgs to the acre of prilled as thats what the 2 bags worked out to field size

 

[Tompkins]

I would love to know how 600kgs of any product is going to raise pH by a whole point?

 

[Chae1]

We farm ground that's 5-5.5ph.

We put 375kg/ha on it each year and get decent crops. My aim isn't to improve this guy's land, just get a crop.

It works.

 

[Macsky]

I know this will be a controversial thread with the lime suppliers but ................ ( I'm posting for a sense check)


After a bit of testing we have a few fileds where i need to lift pH by 1 point (5.5 - 6.5) I priced up some top quality Derbyshire ground limestone at £28/t delivered - its nv55 and applictaion rate would be 8-9t /ha to achive the 1 point pH change = £238/ha .......... thats a rather scary number

Calcifert lime application rate to achieve the same 1 point ph change is 600kgs /ha - its £151/t. = £ 90.60/ha


No application included in either costs as we can do VRA bulk or prilled ourselves


This cost difference is a shocker frankly ? what am I missing ? If paying for bulk application the gap would be even greater I know some don't believe that lower rates of finer product can achieve the same as a bulk but my experience of using it to maintain ph and supply Ca or Mg using low rates in crop (circa 100kgs /ha). seem to suggest it does what it claims. ? I would be Interested to hear from others that have used the product


@Cab-over Pete i know you wont like this thread or think i'm maybe baiting you but I assure that's not the intention, I'm posting this to both sense check the decisson i 'm making right now and try to understand why )on the face of it). the bulk product seems so much more expensive when TBH I thought it would have been the cheaper option ?

I had a couple of loads of limestone ‘flour’, a very finely ground and dried lime used primarily for feed, and interestingly calciprill production, delivered over 100 miles for just over £70/t, less than twice the price of ground ag lime, but 3x more effective by my reckoning. See if you can find something like that. It basically the same stuff as the prills, just much cheaper.

 

[Macsky]

I would love to know how 600kgs of any product is going to raise pH by a whole point?

Would need to be highly reactive, like burnt lime.

 

[Breckland Boy]

I have used 200+ tonnes of lime this last year and will again this.
I also use calcifert.
My experience is the calcifert is a get out of jail card. It will sort the issue for a year.
If you have an underlying issue and are farming long term you need proper lime and will need multiple applications to get the pH right.

 

[Henarar]

I had a couple of loads of limestone ‘flour’, a very finely ground and dried lime used primarily for feed, and interestingly calciprill production, delivered over 100 miles for just over £70/t, less than twice the price of ground ag lime, but 3x more effective by my reckoning. See if you can find something like that. It basically the same stuff as the prills, just much cheaper.

We used to spread it, it was called filler dust and back then at least it was was cheaper out of the quarry than ag lime, it was a bit of a sod to haul and spread though as it flowed like water.
basically what the dust they vacuum off cleanstone products

 

[Clive]

I would love to know how 600kgs of any product is going to raise pH by a whole point?

don't shoot the messenger here but its surposed to be down to granual size and therefore surface area of the product - the ground lime is 3.25mm or less where as the prilled product is 0.1mm or less

there is a logic I can follow there as the surface area of a product would definitely have an effect on availability - prilled limes aside thats why some ground product / quarries are better that others and have varying NV and liming factors ?

 

[Clive]

your baiting
from experience the 600kgs a heactare is bullshyte!!
it will lift ph by 0.1
work out the costs using 2ton/a 5t/h of granlime

not baiting - the price difference is big here, the decision between these 2 options I have in front of me right now makes £20k difference to me this month

I have some experience of my own (but more as a low rate maintenance thing not lifting ph by 1 as is the aim / need here). so Im looking to hear the experience of others

 

[Tompkins]

To be fair I've no experience of Calcifert and I can see that it may do a job on a crop that's already been established - a short term solution.
In my experience to raise the pH by 1 whole point will require good quality lime and at the rates you're considering would probably be better done over multiple applications at a lower rate.

 

[Clive]

I had a couple of loads of limestone ‘flour’, a very finely ground and dried lime used primarily for feed, and interestingly calciprill production, delivered over 100 miles for just over £70/t, less than twice the price of ground ag lime, but 3x more effective by my reckoning. See if you can find something like that. It basically the same stuff as the prills, just much cheaper.

I guess Calcifert is exactly that but made into a more spreadable product than the very fine dust

 

[Clive]

To be fair I've no experience of Calcifert and I can see that it may do a job on a crop that's already been established - a short term solution.
In my experience to raise the pH by 1 whole point will require good quality lime and at the rates you're considering would probably be better done over multiple applications at a lower rate.

it will either lift the ph or not - can't see any ambiguity or difference re timing etc - its the same product just much finer

the price difference is big though - like really big !

 

[davidroberts30]

it will either lift the ph or not - can't see any ambiguity or difference re timing etc - its the same product just much finer

the price difference is big though - like really big !

Forget the lifting the ph with prilled, it won't, full stop!
As been said,it might help and established crop short term but there's no getting away from the fact that 200kgs of 1 product CANT equall 2ton of another IDENTICAL product!
You get smaller fines in the prill, so it might help the crop you're applying it to, but you get the same fines in the ground, just the then bigger particles last lot longer.
It's your money your choice but if you have the land more than 3 years ground is a no brainer

 

[Sandy]

I know this will be a controversial thread with the lime suppliers but ................ ( I'm posting for a sense check)


After a bit of testing we have a few fileds where i need to lift pH by 1 point (5.5 - 6.5) I priced up some top quality Derbyshire ground limestone at £28/t delivered - its nv55 and applictaion rate would be 8-9t /ha to achive the 1 point pH change = £238/ha .......... thats a rather scary number

Calcifert lime application rate to achieve the same 1 point ph change is 600kgs /ha - its £151/t. = £ 90.60/ha


No application included in either costs as we can do VRA bulk or prilled ourselves


This cost difference is a shocker frankly ? what am I missing ? If paying for bulk application the gap would be even greater I know some don't believe that lower rates of finer product can achieve the same as a bulk but my experience of using it to maintain ph and supply Ca or Mg using low rates in crop (circa 100kgs /ha). seem to suggest it does what it claims. ? I would be Interested to hear from others that have used the product


@Cab-over Pete i know you wont like this thread or think i'm maybe baiting you but I assure that's not the intention, I'm posting this to both sense check the decisson i 'm making right now and try to understand why )on the face of it). the bulk product seems so much more expensive when TBH I thought it would have been the cheaper option ?

Maybe better too split the lime over 2yrs too raise the ph that much

 

[Clive]

Maybe better too split the lime over 2yrs too raise the ph that much

if using the bulk product i would agree - especially on low cec sandy soils

 

[Clive]

Forget the lifting the ph with prilled, it won't, full stop
As been said,it might help and established crop short term but there's no getting away from the fact that 200kgs of 1 product CANT equall 2ton of another IDENTICAL product
You get smaller fines in.prill so it might help the crop your applying it to but you get the same fines in ground just the then bigger particles last lot longer
It's your money your choice but if you have the land more than 3 years ground is a no brainer

understand but what are you basing that on ?

i have seen prilled product lift ph here when used so it does work ……. however i can accept that maybe that’s at the cost of a shorter lived correction as you get the full neutralisation faster but less slower release longer term ? …… you rarely get something for nothing !

more surface area must equal more availability (logically) - IF the greater quantity of bulk product is less available it will take many more years to see the benifit ?

 

[davidroberts30]

understand but what are you basing that on ?

i have seen prilled product lift ph here when used so it does work ……. however i can accept that maybe that’s at the cost of a shorter lived correction as you get the full neutralisation faster but less slower release longer term ? …… you rarely get something for nothing !

more surface area must equal more availability (logically) - IF the greater quantity of bulk product is less available it will take many more years to see the benifit ?

Prilled is fine lime dust ,same as found in ground


Hence the "if you have the land long term"

Do a trial,over 5 year .test every 12 months see what's what
200kgs prilled on 1 patch and 2ton on other

 

[e3120]

It depends whether you're farming the land in such a way that the tendency is always to acidify (eg use of AN and AS). Obviously the soil type is a big factor here.

If the ongoing practice is 'neutral', the quick win of the califert might be enough, but more likely to need the ongoing neutralization provided by coarser particles.