Calcium supplemeting ewes

[JD-Kid]

rapes and kales have higer Ca levels more so if you tose on lime while lifting Ph doing paddock renewal

the lower Ph would be afecting min up take so lifting base Ph will help in alot of ways

can't recall where i read it but most of the ca is pulled out of the teeth before bones so teeth same in people

from a geneic side if a animal can't store eneff ca in the good times or can't control it's ca levels there will be on going probs

just a strange question do your rams come from a area with higher Ca limestone countrys chulk etc etc

 

[Global ovine]

This is where our systems vary.

We never tup our ewe lambs,we let them grow and mature unstressed.I was actually surprised that one of the worlds leading sheep expert @Global ovine advocated not lambing ewe lambs due to the reduction in performance over their lifetime and lack of financial benefit.It has been fashionable to breed from ewe lambs however I would say the ones who get away with it are mainly lowland with good body weights at tupping and do them well.

Second thing is we feed our ewes well throughout the year and you may be finding cutting back on hard feed and relying on forage is a false economy.

Hindsight is great.

Do you think you have cut back too far on bought in nutrition?

Two points:

1. "World leading sheep expert" is your opinion @Yale. You only took in half of the point I regularly make about lambing ewe lambs; if that mob of ewe lambs fail to reach their normal mature mating weight as a Two Tooth (Gimmer) by 5kgs or more, that mob will under perform for their lifetime by more than the value of the lambs produced as ewe lambs. I am an advocate for lambing ewe lambs if a farmer has the skills and feed resources to successfully rear good lambs and not compromise Two Tooth mating weights and has addressed the easier ways to make more profit by improving lamb growth preweaning by better pasture management and ewe milk production by better pasture allowance in the first 6 weeks of lactation.
   
2. Premature loss of incisor teeth (paradontal disease) is a classic symptom of mineral imbalance. The primary minerals being Phosphorus and Calcium. Where high P exists in low Ca situations paradontal disease is one and often the first outcome. Because Magnesium is the trigger mineral used by pregnant mammals to mobilise Ca from the skeleton in late pregnancy/lactation, it is a fair assumption to expect any soils high in Mg to exacerbate this problem. Take good advice about mineral supplementation......the cheapest advice may turn out to be very costly for many years. There definitely will be a genetic-enviroment interaction at play here as some breeds/strain will be better at utilising minerals in various challenge situations. The vital time to build up Ca reserves is in the skeleton building phase (hogget/ewe lamb year), so be wary of root crops in regions where paradontal disease occurs as these are low in Ca. Fine lime dusted silage is an easy managed option to supplement Ca.

 

[hendrebc]

I'e lambed on acid moor pasture and alot of poor (landlords think it' good obviously) pasture.... even hebridean had poor teeth retention. I added limestone flour to water trough on advice of vet. They would disslve an inch layer in a month. Sheep stired them themselves as they were topped up by a ballcock. Made a difference to twin lamb and growth rates. Blood samples show most of my stock is ca deficient but not as bad as when on that land. My limed land produces fast lambs of all breeds. The lime flour is a quick cheap fix. Can also be mixed into moist feeds or molasses and fed as a quick fix. I found suffolk x were more susceptible than any others to ca def

Its a quick fix im after this spring so ill definetly try lime flour on silage and try figure out another way to get it in them. Thanks nice to know im not the only one having trouble.

One year our cattle were short of calcium and the remedy was to give them magnesium. Would this apply to sheep. Also wouldn't giving too much calcium before lambing make them poor at mobilising their own calcium when they lamb?

I was advised to supplement them with magnesium before lambing and calcium after lambing

i would add geans in there too any they show poor form etc put in to a off type mob and don't keep replacments out of them
but
sheep we brought up from down south had no probs on limestone country
same gean pool and ewes here teeth wear and gapping undershot jaws etc etc started turning up 2 -3 year being here

Been culling pretty hard for teeth and jaws. If i wasnt so short of ewes after culling more than i normally would id not keep their daughters too if i didnt need them as replacements. Been selecting rams on longevity hoping it would make a difference.

The prilled stuff will actually add Calcium to the soil, just not much and it won't lift pH for long. Calcifert-S is sold without making any claims to pH rectification, just supply Ca and Sulphur (which you would benefit from too by the looks of that result).

It would be cheaper, and give a better economic response, to put lime on that land and leave any fertiliser at the merchants. Use the fertiliser money to buy the lime, or just on part of it if you need to prove the point to someone.

That was my plan this year spend less or nothing if i think i can get away with it on fert and spend the money on lime. Will need to get some proper advice before i do anything though be easy to get it wrong reading that thread about trace elements spread on soil and throwing everything out

rapes and kales have higer Ca levels more so if you tose on lime while lifting Ph doing paddock renewal

the lower Ph would be afecting min up take so lifting base Ph will help in alot of ways

can't recall where i read it but most of the ca is pulled out of the teeth before bones so teeth same in people

from a geneic side if a animal can't store eneff ca in the good times or can't control it's ca levels there will be on going probs

just a strange question do your rams come from a area with higher Ca limestone countrys chulk etc etc

Im not sure if the rams are from a high calcium area or not the lleyn rams for breeding replacements come from scotland ive never been on the farm. Their ewes are long lived the last ram i bought from them came from a 10 year old ewe that still had her teeth but i have no idea of the calcium status of tjeir farm. Ill ask when i see them next sale i go to.

Two points:

1. "World leading sheep expert" is your opinion @Yale. You only took in half of the point I regularly make about lambing ewe lambs; if that mob of ewe lambs fail to reach their normal mature mating weight as a Two Tooth (Gimmer) by 5kgs or more, that mob will under perform for their lifetime by more than the value of the lambs produced as ewe lambs. I am an advocate for lambing ewe lambs if a farmer has the skills and feed resources to successfully rear good lambs and not compromise Two Tooth mating weights and has addressed the easier ways to make more profit by improving lamb growth preweaning by better pasture management and ewe milk production by better pasture allowance in the first 6 weeks of lactation.
   
2. Premature loss of incisor teeth (paradontal disease) is a classic symptom of mineral imbalance. The primary minerals being Phosphorus and Calcium. Where high P exists in low Ca situations paradontal disease is one and often the first outcome. Because Magnesium is the trigger mineral used by pregnant mammals to mobilise Ca from the skeleton in late pregnancy/lactation, it is a fair assumption to expect any soils high in Mg to exacerbate this problem. Take good advice about mineral supplementation......the cheapest advice may turn out to be very costly for many years. There definitely will be a genetic-enviroment interaction at play here as some breeds/strain will be better at utilising minerals in various challenge situations. The vital time to build up Ca reserves is in the skeleton building phase (hogget/ewe lamb year), so be wary of root crops in regions where paradontal disease occurs as these are low in Ca. Fine lime dusted silage is an easy managed option to supplement Ca.

Thanks for the expaination @Global ovine lots to think about ill definetly try and supplement the ewe lambs more as they are growing.

Thanks for the input and replies everyone never come across anyone else having this problem so was a bit stumped hopefully ill get it sorted this year

 

[Yale]

Two points:

1. "World leading sheep expert" is your opinion @Yale. You only took in half of the point I regularly make about lambing ewe lambs; if that mob of ewe lambs fail to reach their normal mature mating weight as a Two Tooth (Gimmer) by 5kgs or more, that mob will under perform for their lifetime by more than the value of the lambs produced as ewe lambs. I am an advocate for lambing ewe lambs if a farmer has the skills and feed resources to successfully rear good lambs and not compromise Two Tooth mating weights and has addressed the easier ways to make more profit by improving lamb growth preweaning by better pasture management and ewe milk production by better pasture allowance in the first 6 weeks of lactation.
   
2. Premature loss of incisor teeth (paradontal disease) is a classic symptom of mineral imbalance. The primary minerals being Phosphorus and Calcium. Where high P exists in low Ca situations paradontal disease is one and often the first outcome. Because Magnesium is the trigger mineral used by pregnant mammals to mobilise Ca from the skeleton in late pregnancy/lactation, it is a fair assumption to expect any soils high in Mg to exacerbate this problem. Take good advice about mineral supplementation......the cheapest advice may turn out to be very costly for many years. There definitely will be a genetic-enviroment interaction at play here as some breeds/strain will be better at utilising minerals in various challenge situations. The vital time to build up Ca reserves is in the skeleton building phase (hogget/ewe lamb year), so be wary of root crops in regions where paradontal disease occurs as these are low in Ca. Fine lime dusted silage is an easy managed option to supplement Ca.

Ha..shows at least I half listen.

I certainly wouldn’t want to breed from ewe lambs in our situation as it would compromise time spent and resources from the main ewe flock.

Our ewe lambs are kept at a high density late winter and fed ad lib silage however night and day from the requirements if they were in lamb.

Like you say with careful husbandry from a good mating weight and a disproportionate amount of labour versus the main flock at lambing then it can be done....at a cost.