Can we all carry on farming?

[SilliamWhale]

I think your missing my point, which I may of not made clearly to be fair. If I crop it and let’s say it’s all wheat then I’m paying out £50,000 in fertiliser, £12,000 in farm saved seeds, £37,000 in chemicals. My in house stubble to stubble cost will be circa £25,000 plus the extra in fuel so let’s say all in £140,000 before I see any profit.

The problem with this is the risk factor isn’t it. Yes I could sell some wheat forward but have you seen the recent weather patterns were getting the last 10 years? What about another 2012 flooding or drought which halves yields?

What about a collapse in the world wheat price? You can bet any forward sold wheat contracts will somehow be wangled out of!

We are living in very uncertain times and dumping out an extra £140,000 isn’t for me so you might think I’m mad, but I’m playing it safe protecting what we’ve already got.

£12k in farm saved seeds??

 

[Secret Agronomist]

As an employee, the only thing is to keep buggering on!
We need the straw we how for the carrots and we gave spuds as well. That commits us to a certain level of staff. We could go all spring cereals using home saved seed and obviously lower levels of spray and fert spend. However (price and yield depending) winter wheat still makes money. Growing a lot of rye as well which works out ok and needs less fert spend but seed is pricey. If I don't produce enough straw then it costs a lot to buy and then bale and haul. Thoughts at the moment are to follow spuds with either spring barley or if the weather is OK wheat without ploughing. Then s. barley after wheat with rye and roots mixed in there. That would reduce the risk from late sown wheat and we could use a lot OF HSS. Could swap rye out for some w. barley which would mean HSS seed again and a spread of harvest and therefore a smaller combine.

 

[farenheit]

£12k in farm saved seeds??

40t

 

[Hindsight]

As an employee, the only thing is to keep buggering on!
We need the straw we how for the carrots and we gave spuds as well. That commits us to a certain level of staff. We could go all spring cereals using home saved seed and obviously lower levels of spray and fert spend. However (price and yield depending) winter wheat still makes money. Growing a lot of rye as well which works out ok and needs less fert spend but seed is pricey. If I don't produce enough straw then it costs a lot to buy and then bale and haul. Thoughts at the moment are to follow spuds with either spring barley or if the weather is OK wheat without ploughing. Then s. barley after wheat with rye and roots mixed in there. That would reduce the risk from late sown wheat and we could use a lot OF HSS. Could swap rye out for some w. barley which would mean HSS seed again and a spread of harvest and therefore a smaller combine.

Are you contracting spuds for 2022 ? If so have you managed much of a price increase. varying the area?

 

[Secret Agronomist]

Are you contracting spuds for 2022 ? If so have you managed much of a price increase. varying the area?

I think you can guess tge answer to those questions! A wee bit of a rise on one variety, area will be down a touch.

 

[jendan]

It’s abit of a mish mash at the moment as we are in the process of joining two farms together for labour and machinery. Extremely high crop prices and inflation have kind of scuppered some of the ideas of 18 months ago.
1 big tractor, 3 normal ones, a trailed sprayer and an older self prop, 2x 12m drills one 3 years old one 7, a lexicon that’s 2 seasons old and an 8 year old jd combine on a stripper header, some trailers, a twin leg mole and an old subsoiler.
like I said we are in the middle of sorting it all out, I didn’t want to cut too far because a spreadsheet said to then realise we needed to buy back into something.

How many acres are you doing with this,and what is your crop rotation?

 

[ajd132]

How many acres are you doing with this,and what is your crop rotation?

Quite a lot and no set rotation 30% spring crops all arable

 

[Spud]

Quite a lot and no set rotation 30% spring crops all arable

Not over kitted if thats at scale - though could probably lose a tractor withland close by and a spread of crops?

Are you growing cover crops pre spring crops? (ie essentially drilling the full acreage each autumn with something)

 

[farmer dave136]

why are you all moaning with wheat £200 + a ton, just another case of farmers pleading hard up, getting boring now.

200 is no better than 150 with a the input prices and machinery going up you numpty

 

[ajd132]

Not over kitted if thats at scale - though could probably lose a tractor withland close by and a spread of crops?

Are you growing cover crops pre spring crops? (ie essentially drilling the full acreage each autumn with something)

Still plenty of scope to cut back but didn’t want to cut too thin too quickly.
yes spring crops all have a cover infront of them

 

[Coximus]

Sorry I didn’t explain very well. So this was for a general worker, so things like corn cart, corn store cleaning, bowser and some none farming work on the diversifications such as groundscare. So he basically wanted £47,000/year. He’s 22 years old with minimal experience but clearly a bright chap and appears to be a ‘doer’.

I run a ground works business - a general laborer is 15 to 20 an hour now, their simply is no one spare capable of doing work, and those that are are in such demand.

Machinery drivers can easily get 18-20 on q building site with a £10 a day travel allowance.

Im paying 18y olds who can do a 7 hour day (8-4 with lunch) £120 a day.
now to be fair before brexit, covid etc that was £95 so still more than farmers usually pay, but the jump will hit agriculture harder as its been paying far bellow the true value for labour for decades, the shock to the business is hard, and the hard thing for farmers is its very difficult to pass costs on due to the uneven market were in.

As for my ground works - My labour charge to clients has gone up 45% since 2018, and materials are whole separate story, 5% rises month on month are not uncommon now.

I have an advert for a 39hour week, at £20 an hour in Leeds for a skilled / semi skilled grounds worker with 3+ years experience. Its been up since november and Ive had 3 enquirers, all wanted £25 an hour, and 2 were already on £22.50 an hour, but wanting work closer to home (and more money). I offered one the job at a price match of £22.50 and his employer (a large housebuilder) matched the £25 and promised a minimum £1.50 payrise in april. They added a clothing allowance of buy and give us the recepit for any clothing needed to the mix.

I will be matching these prices soon once im off some contracts priced in 2020.

Supply and demand.

 

[Hfd Cattle]

I run a ground works business - a general laborer is 15 to 20 an hour now, their simply is no one spare capable of doing work, and those that are are in such demand.

Machinery drivers can easily get 18-20 on q building site with a £10 a day travel allowance.

Im paying 18y olds who can do a 7 hour day (8-4 with lunch) £120 a day.
now to be fair before brexit, covid etc that was £95 so still more than farmers usually pay, but the jump will hit agriculture harder as its been paying far bellow the true value for labour for decades, the shock to the business is hard, and the hard thing for farmers is its very difficult to pass costs on due to the uneven market were in.

As for my ground works - My labour charge to clients has gone up 45% since 2018, and materials are whole separate story, 5% rises month on month are not uncommon now.

I have an advert for a 39hour week, at £20 an hour in Leeds for a skilled / semi skilled grounds worker with 3+ years experience. Its been up since november and Ive had 3 enquirers, all wanted £25 an hour, and 2 were already on £22.50 an hour, but wanting work closer to home (and more money). I offered one the job at a price match of £22.50 and his employer (a large housebuilder) matched the £25 and promised a minimum £1.50 payrise in april. They added a clothing allowance of buy and give us the recepit for any clothing needed to the mix.

I will be matching these prices soon once im off some contracts priced in 2020.

Supply and demand.

Just out of interest , how will the new diesel regulations affect you .? In my view it is grossly unfair and uncalled for !

 

[The Seeker]

At that price for labour it’s impossible to compete.

 

[Coximus]

Just out of interest , how will the new diesel regulations affect you .? In my view it is grossly unfair and uncalled for !

at pre ukraine crisis pricing it would add around £250 a week to my costs, Weve got an electric mini dump barrow coming soon which should take £100 off that. At current figures nearly £500 a week for next weeks quoted price.
Using inverters and battery packs for site electricity alot more now,
In the grand scheme of things its barely a half % hit and is dwarfed by last weeks cement price rises alone - Why the govt did it really, construction could afford to cough up the few billion as its not really going to hurt or be noticed.
It will hurt the cheaper budget operators and folk who sell themselves on an hourly rate but thats probs a good thing, ground works and landscaping is full of people undercharging for a few years then going bust.

 

[Coximus]

At that price for labour it’s impossible to compete.

I agree, agriculutre is having a wake up call like no other - loss of subs at the same time the labour economy is pinched, combine with the working expectations and conditions from an employees POV on a farm are, quite frankly shiiiiiii eee. The only people I know who would work on a farm are those who want their own and do it for the skills and the hope of getting a foot in the door - but for a family farm that means commitments they can never keep or afford -
A big one too - i find alot of farmers expect the same commitment from an employee they have - but the employee owns 0% of that £millions asset, and gets no benefit - and certainly isnt going to stay over time for free for a stuck calve, thats the owners problem and cost - when compared to working on a building site or the roads - 5 o lcock comes, you go.
Sales up - get a target bonus
want hoiday any time like harvest or lambing? kids at school?
Unless you pay alot, or give a stake and some freedom to your staff, In the coming years I think farming will have a massive reduction in staffing.

 

[Hfd Cattle]

at pre ukraine crisis pricing it would add around £250 a week to my costs, Weve got an electric mini dump barrow coming soon which should take £100 off that. At current figures nearly £500 a week for next weeks quoted price.
Using inverters and battery packs for site electricity alot more now,
In the grand scheme of things its barely a half % hit and is dwarfed by last weeks cement price rises alone - Why the govt did it really, construction could afford to cough up the few billion as its not really going to hurt or be noticed.
It will hurt the cheaper budget operators and folk who sell themselves on an hourly rate but thats probs a good thing, ground works and landscaping is full of people undercharging for a few years then going bust.

Thankyou ...nice to get an honest reply . ....might help sort the cowboys out .
Another question ... are you hit by theft much ? The Ag industry is suffering unprecedented rises in theft .

 

[Coximus]

Thankyou ...nice to get an honest reply . ....might help sort the cowboys out .
Another question ... are you hit by theft much ? The Ag industry is suffering unprecedented rises in theft .

yes - usual traveller gypsy theft of tools as a background thing whenever they pass through the area - police only use is saying "take everything home" fat good when you have 4 containers of gear on a site - police more concerned if youve misgendered a quadro-trans dimensional dwarf than if your livelihood is affected, as obviously one means nice subjective paperwork and daft phonecalls, the other means arresting gypos for theft. (literally had a lad on a site taken for 4 hours for a talking to because he called another lad working for a surveyor a d**kh**d for walking infront of a 7 tonne excavator in crocs - he identified as non binary so calling him d**kh**d was deliberate aggression apparently.

Material theft is coming in now - small busineses nicking bricks, blocks and paving especially as domestic customers dont seem to be able to accept the price rises - a £5k driveway in 2018 is now £8k+ and rising - so thats an issue. Also found DIY cars pinching sand and stuff alot since sept last year - same thing, people have in their head they could do a little patio for a couple of hundred DIY and find to do it costs £500, see a building site and pop over in the evening, sadly theyre often right, the tiny bit they pinch isnt noticed for ages due to the volumes on site.

Also finding fly tipping going up massivly, as the councils crack down on waste stations licencing to get more money to waste on Bike lanes in industrial estates to no where, so tipping costs go up - again for alot of small builders in Leeds, tipping rubble in a field is £150+ saved each time, so helps cover their rising costs.


Alot of the issues we face are the incompetence and general intellectual dead weight of the public sector, acting as 5x multiplier for the economic issues we could otherwise probably cope quite well with.

Rant over.
Dog walk time.

 

[jendan]

yes - usual traveller gypsy theft of tools as a background thing whenever they pass through the area - police only use is saying "take everything home" fat good when you have 4 containers of gear on a site - police more concerned if youve misgendered a quadro-trans dimensional dwarf than if your livelihood is affected, as obviously one means nice subjective paperwork and daft phonecalls, the other means arresting gypos for theft. (literally had a lad on a site taken for 4 hours for a talking to because he called another lad working for a surveyor a d**kh**d for walking infront of a 7 tonne excavator in crocs - he identified as non binary so calling him d**kh**d was deliberate aggression apparently.

Material theft is coming in now - small busineses nicking bricks, blocks and paving especially as domestic customers dont seem to be able to accept the price rises - a £5k driveway in 2018 is now £8k+ and rising - so thats an issue. Also found DIY cars pinching sand and stuff alot since sept last year - same thing, people have in their head they could do a little patio for a couple of hundred DIY and find to do it costs £500, see a building site and pop over in the evening, sadly theyre often right, the tiny bit they pinch isnt noticed for ages due to the volumes on site.

Also finding fly tipping going up massivly, as the councils crack down on waste stations licencing to get more money to waste on Bike lanes in industrial estates to no where, so tipping costs go up - again for alot of small builders in Leeds, tipping rubble in a field is £150+ saved each time, so helps cover their rising costs.


Alot of the issues we face are the incompetence and general intellectual dead weight of the public sector, acting as 5x multiplier for the economic issues we could otherwise probably cope quite well with.

Rant over.
Dog walk time.

Great replies! telling it as it is.

 

[jendan]

Quite a lot and no set rotation 30% spring crops all arable

Spit it out man ! 3000-4000acres? W Wheat,W Wheat, OSR ?

 

[ajd132]

Spit it out man ! 3000-4000acres? W Wheat,W Wheat, OSR ?

5000. Wheat osr barley oats beans winter and spring depending. No set rotation .