Clean air strategy

[Cowabunga]

Catchment sensitive farming officer contacted me this week, and said the big push now was on ammonia levels, with a likely ban on splash plate spreaders. Small business grants available for injectors on tankers, but only to farmers, not contractors, who I guess do a big proportion of slurry spreading. He wanted me to go to a meeting/workshop at harper Adams about it, but I said that I use a contractor for slurry.
I also think they want in field heaps of muck to be covered and all slurry tanks /pits covered.

I am more and more convinced that the time is right for me to retire. I'm not going to invest a penny in any of that stuff as I will never pay it back. Furthermore it could be that we have very very low unsustainable prices for our livestock products in future which will not sustain viable businesses even without the additional financial and regulatory burdens inflicted upon us.
A 40% grant is nothing when probably hundreds of thousands need to be spent for zero financial gain but lots of extra running costs even ignoring the capital cost.

The word on the local street this week is that a very substantial dairy farm that has invested a whole lot of money in the business over the last ten years has just gone to the wall. This is only the start.

 

[Tarw Coch]

I am more and more convinced that the time is right for me to retire. I'm not going to invest a penny in any of that stuff as I will never pay it back. Furthermore it could be that we have very very low unsustainable prices for our livestock products in future which will not sustain viable businesses even without the additional financial and regulatory burdens inflicted upon us.
A 40% grant is nothing when probably hundreds of thousands need to be spent for zero financial gain but lots of extra running costs even ignoring the capital cost.

The word on the local street this week is that a very substantial dairy farm that has invested a whole lot of money in the business over the last ten years has just gone to the wall. This is only the start.

IIRC 2027 was the time talked about for things like muck and slurry storage must be covered and muck and slurry may be incorporated/injected or whatever so you and no doubt others have a bit of time yet to plan your retirement.

It’s a bit too soon for my liking, but like you, I can’t see it giving a payback and we’re not going to recover the costs from the market place but I don’t want to be a hamster on a wheel, running ever faster to get nowhere.

 

[theboytheboy]

my concern is that - for those of us who use a chimneey sweep - to get the piece of paper to satisfy the insurance company

they will first start saying "your stove is not to current standard" then "sorry mate I cant pass that doesn't meet regulations" you'll need a new stove

Just had a chimney sweep do exactly that.

 

[Cowabunga]

IIRC 2027 was the time talked about for things like muck and slurry storage must be covered and muck and slurry may be incorporated/injected or whatever so you and no doubt others have a bit of time yet to plan your retirement.

It’s a bit too soon for my liking, but like you, I can’t see it giving a payback and we’re not going to recover the costs from the market place but I don’t want to be a hamster on a wheel, running ever faster to get nowhere.

There will be more than enough hamsters still farming though. If the banks lend them the money. The local farm failure points to the banks putting a stop to even large farms now. With 400 cows and hitting a borrowing limit with debts probably increasing every year, how do such farms imagine justifying the probably remarkably high [hundreds of thousands] necessary to upgrade slurry systems and reduce their N use per acre? All with a lot of hired labour and banks already capping their borrowing facilities or even lowering it.

They are heading for a perfect storm.

 

[nonemouse]

The word on the local street this week is that a very substantial dairy farm that has invested a whole lot of money in the business over the last ten years has just gone to the wall. This is only the start.

I’ve heard that banks are starting to turn the screws on some dairy farmers that are heavily in debt, think they see a chance to get money back now, whilst cow prices and land values are still high and there are still buyers for them.

 

[Two Tone]

We can all go to a lot of meetings and come away thinking that we've heard it all before. But occasionally you have a meeting and something (or even a few things) start to make a lot of sense. Suddenly, the whole meeting becomes one hell of a lot more interesting!

I have just had such a meeting with @Warnesworth and my Agronomist Keith. The meeting was called to discuss the results of some Albrecht soil samples. Pretty routine stuff which basically showed we are still working on the right track and should try tweaking a few things to see what effect they might have.

I mentioned that I had tagged @Warnesworth earlier in this thread in post #176 and particularly wanted to draw his attention to my calculations and discussion with @Brisel in post #167. Namely that correcting applying Nitrogen to a crop, captures 24.12 times more CO2 than it releases in applying it to the crop.

There have been several comments about Urea in this Clean air strategy thread and I was particularly interested to find out @Warnesworth 's view. What he says, I find very interesting. IHO, Urea is no worse and in fact better for the UK environment than AN. The reasons being that Urea is used in many countries that are a lot hotter than we are. Volatilization only occurs if Urea is used on Dry soils that are above 15 degrees Centigrade. Even in hot summers, under the crop canopy, Soils will hardly ever reach such a temperature that would allow Volatilization to occur in the UK

Urea is much slower than AN to release to the crop. We have all seen crops turn blue within a couple of days of an AN application (but never with Urea). That Blueness is Nitrate poisoning within the cell walls. Disease pathogens float in the air looking for Nitrates to feed on. When the land on a blue crop, the cell walls allow entry of them straight into the plant causing extra disease, requiring more fungicides.


The 2nd half of our meeting, I found as, if not more interesting than the whole of the 1st. At my request, we took an in-depth look at the theory of No-till farming. Not only because I feel that it is important to remain flexible to whatever techniques are out there, but because Mr Gove wants to encourage us to farm using this technique.

I have to say that a lot of it makes sense and is very interesting indeed. So much so that I might seriously consider giving it a go (again). There has undoubtedly been a lot learned since I last tried it and there is a myth that I hadn't got right that now corrected might seriously tempt me to have another go. One of my major concerns is that trying to plant crops much beyond the end of September, is often very difficult here. This is one of the reasons I had returned to ploughing. Because its effect on Blackgrass alone allows me to be able to drill all my crops in good conditions by the 7th of October. I had thought that to successfully control Blackgrass in a No-till situation, that delaying drilling was a must. Apparently not! To make No-till a success here, I would actually need to drill by the end of September. That is great news for me and a huge reason to give it a go. I just need to find a suitable Tine Drill and fit the correct narrower coulters to it.

Providing that Glyphosate is still around Mr Gove, I might give No-till a try again!
But you also seriously need to get your facts right regarding Urea and AN, before you throw the baby out with the bath water!

 

[Princess Pooper]

There have been several comments about Urea in this Clean air strategy thread and I was particularly interested to find out @Warnesworth 's view. What he says, I find very interesting. IHO, Urea is no worse and in fact better for the UK environment than AN. The reasons being that Urea is used in many countries that are a lot hotter than we are. Volatilization only occurs if Urea is used on Dry soils that are above 15 degrees Centigrade. Even in hot summers, under the crop canopy, Soils will hardly ever reach such a temperature that would allow Volatilization to occur in the UK

Independent UK research (eg ADAS/SAC report for Defra in 2005) has shown that volatilisation can and does occur extensively from urea application under UK conditions. In hotter countries there is often strict guidance or legislation controlling its use eg only applying cooler months, or when rainfall imminent, or when being incorporated rapidly. Here's a paper from NZ. http://www.massey.ac.nz/~flrc/workshops/11/Manuscripts/Bishop_2011.pdf

Managing nitrogen is like, to use a few clichés, juggling jelly or herding cats and pollution control is essential. With ammonium nitrate, the biggest risk is leaching, hence long-standing controls through NVZs and all the rules that go with that. So far, air pollution has had a relatively light touch. Use of urea has been increasing, as has ammonia pollution, although urea fertiliser is not the only contributor to this. With urea, the biggest pollution risk is volatilisation, hence the call for increased controls. This is Clean Air Strategy, hence the focus on urea. The equivalent 'Clean Water Strategy' has in effect already been addressed through WFD, CSF etc. Manures and slurries can be a big contributor to both air and water pollution hence they are always in the spotlight.

 

[Farmer Roy]

Err, urea losses in a warmer climate, for interest

https://grdc.com.au/resources-and-p...much-n-is-lost-and-how-much-is-left-over-time

 

[SilliamWhale]

We can all go to a lot of meetings and come away thinking that we've heard it all before. But occasionally you have a meeting and something (or even a few things) start to make a lot of sense. Suddenly, the whole meeting becomes one hell of a lot more interesting!

I have just had such a meeting with @Warnesworth and my Agronomist Keith. The meeting was called to discuss the results of some Albrecht soil samples. Pretty routine stuff which basically showed we are still working on the right track and should try tweaking a few things to see what effect they might have.

I mentioned that I had tagged @Warnesworth earlier in this thread in post #176 and particularly wanted to draw his attention to my calculations and discussion with @Brisel in post #167. Namely that correcting applying Nitrogen to a crop, captures 24.12 times more CO2 than it releases in applying it to the crop.

There have been several comments about Urea in this Clean air strategy thread and I was particularly interested to find out @Warnesworth 's view. What he says, I find very interesting. IHO, Urea is no worse and in fact better for the UK environment than AN. The reasons being that Urea is used in many countries that are a lot hotter than we are. Volatilization only occurs if Urea is used on Dry soils that are above 15 degrees Centigrade. Even in hot summers, under the crop canopy, Soils will hardly ever reach such a temperature that would allow Volatilization to occur in the UK

Urea is much slower than AN to release to the crop. We have all seen crops turn blue within a couple of days of an AN application (but never with Urea). That Blueness is Nitrate poisoning within the cell walls. Disease pathogens float in the air looking for Nitrates to feed on. When the land on a blue crop, the cell walls allow entry of them straight into the plant causing extra disease, requiring more fungicides.


The 2nd half of our meeting, I found as, if not more interesting than the whole of the 1st. At my request, we took an in-depth look at the theory of No-till farming. Not only because I feel that it is important to remain flexible to whatever techniques are out there, but because Mr Gove wants to encourage us to farm using this technique.

I have to say that a lot of it makes sense and is very interesting indeed. So much so that I might seriously consider giving it a go (again). There has undoubtedly been a lot learned since I last tried it and there is a myth that I hadn't got right that now corrected might seriously tempt me to have another go. One of my major concerns is that trying to plant crops much beyond the end of September, is often very difficult here. This is one of the reasons I had returned to ploughing. Because its effect on Blackgrass alone allows me to be able to drill all my crops in good conditions by the 7th of October. I had thought that to successfully control Blackgrass in a No-till situation, that delaying drilling was a must. Apparently not! To make No-till a success here, I would actually need to drill by the end of September. That is great news for me and a huge reason to give it a go. I just need to find a suitable Tine Drill and fit the correct narrower coulters to it.

Providing that Glyphosate is still around Mr Gove, I might give No-till a try again!
But you also seriously need to get your facts right regarding Urea and AN, before you throw the baby out with the bath water!

Not necessarily plant in Sept. Ive been pushing back my establishment date the longer Ive been no tilling. As the soil improves (and your experience) you know what you can get away with.

 

[SilliamWhale]

Independent UK research (eg ADAS/SAC report for Defra in 2005) has shown that volatilisation can and does occur extensively from urea application under UK conditions. In hotter countries there is often strict guidance or legislation controlling its use eg only applying cooler months, or when rainfall imminent, or when being incorporated rapidly. Here's a paper from NZ. http://www.massey.ac.nz/~flrc/workshops/11/Manuscripts/Bishop_2011.pdf

Managing nitrogen is like, to use a few clichés, juggling jelly or herding cats and pollution control is essential. With ammonium nitrate, the biggest risk is leaching, hence long-standing controls through NVZs and all the rules that go with that. So far, air pollution has had a relatively light touch. Use of urea has been increasing, as has ammonia pollution, although urea fertiliser is not the only contributor to this. With urea, the biggest pollution risk is volatilisation, hence the call for increased controls. This is Clean Air Strategy, hence the focus on urea. The equivalent 'Clean Water Strategy' has in effect already been addressed through WFD, CSF etc. Manures and slurries can be a big contributor to both air and water pollution hence they are always in the spotlight.

Then why not limit urea application to times of year or have a code.of conduct for when rain is imminent.

I must say Urea is the perfect fert for me as a shower of rain is never far away

 

[Gong Farmer]

Independent UK research (eg ADAS/SAC report for Defra in 2005) has shown that volatilisation can and does occur extensively from urea application under UK conditions. In hotter countries there is often strict guidance or legislation controlling its use eg only applying cooler months, or when rainfall imminent, or when being incorporated rapidly. Here's a paper from NZ. http://www.massey.ac.nz/~flrc/workshops/11/Manuscripts/Bishop_2011.pdf

Managing nitrogen is like, to use a few clichés, juggling jelly or herding cats and pollution control is essential. With ammonium nitrate, the biggest risk is leaching, hence long-standing controls through NVZs and all the rules that go with that. So far, air pollution has had a relatively light touch. Use of urea has been increasing, as has ammonia pollution, although urea fertiliser is not the only contributor to this. With urea, the biggest pollution risk is volatilisation, hence the call for increased controls. This is Clean Air Strategy, hence the focus on urea. The equivalent 'Clean Water Strategy' has in effect already been addressed through WFD, CSF etc. Manures and slurries can be a big contributor to both air and water pollution hence they are always in the spotlight.

If that's the report I think it is, they applied all the N in one dose as urea in May, then covered in polythene to collect the ammonia given off. Hmm.....

 

[Two Tone]

If that's the report I think it is, they applied all the N in one dose as urea in May, then covered in polythene to collect the ammonia given off. Hmm.....

It would be very unlikely that I would ever apply Urea after mid April. Any later than this risks it not all being used by the crop before it starts to ripen.

 

[Gong Farmer]

It would be very unlikely that I would ever apply Urea after mid April. Any later than this risks it not all being used by the crop before it starts to ripen.

Exactly, the only legislation needed against it is a latest application date.

 

[Warnesworth]

We can all go to a lot of meetings and come away thinking that we've heard it all before. But occasionally you have a meeting and something (or even a few things) start to make a lot of sense. Suddenly, the whole meeting becomes one hell of a lot more interesting!

I have just had such a meeting with @Warnesworth and my Agronomist Keith. The meeting was called to discuss the results of some Albrecht soil samples. Pretty routine stuff which basically showed we are still working on the right track and should try tweaking a few things to see what effect they might have.

I mentioned that I had tagged @Warnesworth earlier in this thread in post #176 and particularly wanted to draw his attention to my calculations and discussion with @Brisel in post #167. Namely that correcting applying Nitrogen to a crop, captures 24.12 times more CO2 than it releases in applying it to the crop.

There have been several comments about Urea in this Clean air strategy thread and I was particularly interested to find out @Warnesworth 's view. What he says, I find very interesting. IHO, Urea is no worse and in fact better for the UK environment than AN. The reasons being that Urea is used in many countries that are a lot hotter than we are. Volatilization only occurs if Urea is used on Dry soils that are above 15 degrees Centigrade. Even in hot summers, under the crop canopy, Soils will hardly ever reach such a temperature that would allow Volatilization to occur in the UK

Urea is much slower than AN to release to the crop. We have all seen crops turn blue within a couple of days of an AN application (but never with Urea). That Blueness is Nitrate poisoning within the cell walls. Disease pathogens float in the air looking for Nitrates to feed on. When the land on a blue crop, the cell walls allow entry of them straight into the plant causing extra disease, requiring more fungicides.


The 2nd half of our meeting, I found as, if not more interesting than the whole of the 1st. At my request, we took an in-depth look at the theory of No-till farming. Not only because I feel that it is important to remain flexible to whatever techniques are out there, but because Mr Gove wants to encourage us to farm using this technique.

I have to say that a lot of it makes sense and is very interesting indeed. So much so that I might seriously consider giving it a go (again). There has undoubtedly been a lot learned since I last tried it and there is a myth that I hadn't got right that now corrected might seriously tempt me to have another go. One of my major concerns is that trying to plant crops much beyond the end of September, is often very difficult here. This is one of the reasons I had returned to ploughing. Because its effect on Blackgrass alone allows me to be able to drill all my crops in good conditions by the 7th of October. I had thought that to successfully control Blackgrass in a No-till situation, that delaying drilling was a must. Apparently not! To make No-till a success here, I would actually need to drill by the end of September. That is great news for me and a huge reason to give it a go. I just need to find a suitable Tine Drill and fit the correct narrower coulters to it.

Providing that Glyphosate is still around Mr Gove, I might give No-till a try again!
But you also seriously need to get your facts right regarding Urea and AN, before you throw the baby out with the bath water!

Firstly, thanks to @Two Tone for his kind words.
Secondly judging by some of the subsequent comments made, some clarification is required. See below....

 

[Warnesworth]

Independent UK research (eg ADAS/SAC report for Defra in 2005) has shown that volatilisation can and does occur extensively from urea application under UK conditions. In hotter countries there is often strict guidance or legislation controlling its use eg only applying cooler months, or when rainfall imminent, or when being incorporated rapidly. Here's a paper from NZ. http://www.massey.ac.nz/~flrc/workshops/11/Manuscripts/Bishop_2011.pdf

Managing nitrogen is like, to use a few clichés, juggling jelly or herding cats and pollution control is essential. With ammonium nitrate, the biggest risk is leaching, hence long-standing controls through NVZs and all the rules that go with that. So far, air pollution has had a relatively light touch. Use of urea has been increasing, as has ammonia pollution, although urea fertiliser is not the only contributor to this. With urea, the biggest pollution risk is volatilisation, hence the call for increased controls. This is Clean Air Strategy, hence the focus on urea. The equivalent 'Clean Water Strategy' has in effect already been addressed through WFD, CSF etc. Manures and slurries can be a big contributor to both air and water pollution hence they are always in the spotlight.

Urea is first converted to ammonia by the enzyme urease, the ammonia then reacts with water to produce ammonium. There is no doubt that urea can volatilise whilst in the ammonia phase, but it only happens under very certain conditions and we should not forget that. The conditions are;
Dry soil; - as @Brisel demonstrates in post #156 above if there is sufficient soil moisture, the urea is quickly in solution and at less risk of loss.
Soil temp; Has to be above 15'C for volatilisation to occur. When in the UK does the soil temp reach 15'C? Especially if the soil is covered by crop or residue?
Soil pH; once the soil pH is above 8.2 then ammonia volatilisation accelerates.

Of course there are plenty of instances where Urea should not be used, but in @Two Tone 's circumstances I believe the risks of volatilisation are very low.

Let us not also forget that Nitrate N can also easily be lost to the atmosphere under the process of denitrification. Which I suggest also may happen regularly in UK conditions, but no-one ever mentions that....!
Also the speed at which Nitrate N can be lost via leaching compared to Ammonium N is rarely mentioned.

 

[Warnesworth]

Not necessarily plant in Sept. Ive been pushing back my establishment date the longer Ive been no tilling. As the soil improves (and your experience) you know what you can get away with.

Absolutely. But to start with we find that drilling earlier reduces risk, especially where soil fertility is low. Once confidence in the system is increased then adjustments can be made. The soil conditions are more important than the date.

 

[Warnesworth]

I am more and more convinced that the time is right for me to retire. I'm not going to invest a penny in any of that stuff as I will never pay it back. Furthermore it could be that we have very very low unsustainable prices for our livestock products in future which will not sustain viable businesses even without the additional financial and regulatory burdens inflicted upon us.
A 40% grant is nothing when probably hundreds of thousands need to be spent for zero financial gain but lots of extra running costs even ignoring the capital cost.

The word on the local street this week is that a very substantial dairy farm that has invested a whole lot of money in the business over the last ten years has just gone to the wall. This is only the start.

I can see now, more than ever livestock farmers need to be concentrating on how to maximise the use of grazed grass and build/develop their production system around low-cost outdoor production and mob-grazing.

 

[Cowabunga]

I can see now, more than ever livestock farmers need to be concentrating on how to maximise the use of grazed grass and build/develop their production system around low-cost outdoor production and mob-grazing.

If you think I'm going to turn my farm into a sea of mud and compaction you've got the wrong track completely. There's a five month winter around here where cattle are concerned and only small patches of land, miles from here, suitable for extended grazing season.
My cows come in when the ground is too wet for the land and the weather too harsh on the animals. End of. If that doesn't work in future then that's the end of any commercial farming here.

 

[Warnesworth]

If you think I'm going to turn my farm into a sea of mud and compaction you've got the wrong track completely. There's a five month winter around here where cattle are concerned and only small patches of land, miles from here, suitable for extended grazing season.
My cows come in when the ground is too wet for the land and the weather too harsh on the animals. End of. If that doesn't work in future then that's the end of any commercial farming here.

I never said anything about 'sea of mud and compaction'. Research mob-grazing and understand what it's about, because its anything but what you describe.

 

[Cowabunga]

I never said anything about 'sea of mud and compaction'. Research mob-grazing and understand what it's about, because its anything but what you describe.

I know what my cows do when turned out on my land in very wet weather, believe me. I don't live near Chipping Norton and I don't keep them in a shed for fun!