Copper poisoning in weaned calves

[Sid]

We have found an issue within calves of high levels of copper in the livers. Its causing calves to get to around 6 to 7 months of age and show symptoms akin to copper deficiency.
The calves pre weaning at 12 weeks look as described by our vet "among the best looking calves they have seen".
We are feeding 3 litres twice a day for 6 weeks, 1 litre twice a day for 3 weeks then a litre once a day. They are eating over 2 kg of concentrate at weaning and on haylage.
Post weaning the calves then are still on 3 kg of the 16% rearer with free access to haylage.

We have tried increasing the conc and changing the forages.

We have tested the milk, forage water and waiting on the concentrates results. ALL so far low in copper BUT PM's done of the calves we have lost have show copper at 10800umol/kg DM with a standard range from 314 to 7850.. Colbalt is at 0.302 mg/kg DM with ref range of >0.06.

Has anyone seen issues like this before? There must be an antagonist somewhere in the feeding causing these calves to store massive amount of copper seemingly out of thin air?

We have full analysis of water milk and forages.

TIA

Sid

 

[som farmer]

We have found an issue within calves of high levels of copper in the livers. Its causing calves to get to around 6 to 7 months of age and show symptoms akin to copper deficiency.
The calves pre weaning at 12 weeks look as described by our vet "among the best looking calves they have seen".
We are feeding 3 litres twice a day for 6 weeks, 1 litre twice a day for 3 weeks then a litre once a day. They are eating over 2 kg of concentrate at weaning and on haylage.
Post weaning the calves then are still on 3 kg of the 16% rearer with free access to haylage.

We have tried increasing the conc and changing the forages.

We have tested the milk, forage water and waiting on the concentrates results. ALL so far low in copper BUT PM's done of the calves we have lost have show copper at 10800umol/kg DM with a standard range from 314 to 7850.. Colbalt is at 0.302 mg/kg DM with ref range of >0.06.

Has anyone seen issues like this before? There must be an antagonist somewhere in the feeding causing these calves to store massive amount of copper seemingly out of thin air?

We have full analysis of water milk and forages.

TIA

Sid

nice to see you back. There will be something in the diet, that is blocking uptake of copper, round here, it is usually molybdium, but there are others, iron? manganese, been told will cause problems. All present in normal levels, but some will prevent proper utilisation of others, trying to remember what mineral we were short off, in a bunch of cattle, can't, but the cure was simply a shot of vitamin B, the result was amazing. Only had that one once, and it was years back.

 

[Green Grass]

We had problem with cows and copper toxicity. Took 4 years of feeding no additional copper for maiden heifers to come into herd at normal levels.

I suspect most of that copper would be present at birth from their dam. I would be looking into doing liver biospy's on some cows or maybe pm younger calf if possible. Blood test not really accurate enough.

 

[Full of bull(s)]

We had problem with cows and copper toxicity. Took 4 years of feeding no additional copper for maiden heifers to come into herd at normal levels.

I suspect most of that copper would be present at birth from their dam. I would be looking into doing liver biospy's on some cows or maybe pm younger calf if possible. Blood test not really accurate enough.

I’m sure someone told me once that brewers grains were bad for it, and feeding too many to cows led to problems, also with fertility?

 

[Farmer Fin]

We had problem with cows and copper toxicity. Took 4 years of feeding no additional copper for maiden heifers to come into herd at normal levels.

I suspect most of that copper would be present at birth from their dam. I would be looking into doing liver biospy's on some cows or maybe pm younger calf if possible. Blood test not really accurate enough.

Yes this. I have experience in quite a few farms of this. Your cows will have sky high copper as well and calves are being born the same. Get some cows tested.

If I remember rightly one guy ended up feeding sheep feed to his young stock as a lot less copper.

Unfortunately too many nutritionists / companies are obsessed with copper deficiency when in reality what you are experiencing is far to common.

 

[Sid]

We had problem with cows and copper toxicity. Took 4 years of feeding no additional copper for maiden heifers to come into herd at normal levels.

I suspect most of that copper would be present at birth from their dam. I would be looking into doing liver biospy's on some cows or maybe pm younger calf if possible. Blood test not really accurate enough.

Biopsys is next on list. ?

 

[newholland]

yes we had this issue a few years ago with cows sky high in copper, we now spec no minerals in cake due to this problem. Feed minerals separately.

 

[Agrivator]

We have found an issue within calves of high levels of copper in the livers. Its causing calves to get to around 6 to 7 months of age and show symptoms akin to copper deficiency.
The calves pre weaning at 12 weeks look as described by our vet "among the best looking calves they have seen".
We are feeding 3 litres twice a day for 6 weeks, 1 litre twice a day for 3 weeks then a litre once a day. They are eating over 2 kg of concentrate at weaning and on haylage.
Post weaning the calves then are still on 3 kg of the 16% rearer with free access to haylage.

We have tried increasing the conc and changing the forages.

We have tested the milk, forage water and waiting on the concentrates results. ALL so far low in copper BUT PM's done of the calves we have lost have show copper at 10800umol/kg DM with a standard range from 314 to 7850.. Colbalt is at 0.302 mg/kg DM with ref range of >0.06.

Has anyone seen issues like this before? There must be an antagonist somewhere in the feeding causing these calves to store massive amount of copper seemingly out of thin air?

We have full analysis of water milk and forages.

TIA

Sid

What are the symptoms which you think are akin to copper deficiency. I presume that whoever measured the copper levels PM also gave you some idea as to how they compared with normal calves elsewhere but on similar feeding regimes.

 

[kill]

What are the symptoms which you think are akin to copper deficiency. I presume that whoever measured the copper levels PM also gave you some idea as to how they compared with normal calves elsewhere but on similar feeding regimes.

Copper levels are too high , rather than low

 

[som farmer]

it's not so much the amount, its how much can be utilised by animal, other minerals, will affect, in different ways, the uptake of copper, or another min.

 

[newholland]

The foot bath water disposal cycle will bite a lot of people eventually.

 

[sidjon]

Any distillery waste in your concs? We had ewes poisoning from molasses, because wrong load was dropped off, ( not that I don't trust the feed companies but had 300kg of quarry stone in a delivery a couple of years ago and that wasn't on the ticket) think low levels of sulphur can increase copper toxicity of liver.

 

[bobk]

I would think the copper was coming from the soil , surely

 

[whatnow]

We have found an issue within calves of high levels of copper in the livers. Its causing calves to get to around 6 to 7 months of age and show symptoms akin to copper deficiency.
The calves pre weaning at 12 weeks look as described by our vet "among the best looking calves they have seen".

What are the symptoms the calves show having copper deficiency and is it physically obvious when looking at the liver in a pm that they’ve retained a surplus?

 

[Sid]

They lose mobility in the back end, wont stand, and throw their heads around.

I haven't seen the livers but 2 post mortem at APHA starcross and one with own vets with various samples sent away for analysis with reports back.

 

[whatnow]

They lose mobility in the back end, wont stand, and throw their heads around.

I haven't seen the livers but 2 post mortem at APHA starcross and one with own vets with various samples sent away for analysis with reports back.

Thanks for the reply. Just wondering about a few issues I’ve had this year...but nothing similar it seems

 

[som farmer]

selenium or cobalt can cause something like that, isn't it 'swayback' in sheep ?

 

[Agrivator]

selenium or cobalt can cause something like that, isn't it 'swayback' in sheep ?

You might be thinking of ''White Muscle'' disease - caused by Selenium and or Vitamin E deficiency. Cobalt deficiency might be an aggravating factor,

Swayback in lambs at birth and which sometimes develops in older lambs is caused by copper deficiency in their mothers during pregnancy. It's associated with low or unavailable copper in mainly forage diets. That is why it is more prevalent in open winters where ewes are fed little or no concentrate.

 

[Princess Pooper]

Assuming these calves home bred, if you send any cull cows can you get their livers tested? copper toxicity can build up over a long period of time so if the calves are being born with it (rather than it being in milk) it might have been some time ago. Have you fed much palm kernel in the past? apparently it can sometimes have very high levels of copper - should be apparent if in a compound but not declared if fed as a straight.