Cummings

[Danllan]

Danllan has gone fairly quiet on the forum.Hope he is not making trips to No 10.

It's half-term, so I've all the normal work plus the children ; Mrs Danllan gets to escape to work, I don't...

 

[MiJ]

Are you happy that we have got unelected "advisors" in government writing the budget.Some who we dont know anything about them,or know they exist?

You mean as shown in Yes Minister?

 

[arcobob]

Are you happy that we have got unelected "advisors" in government writing the budget.Some who we dont know anything about them,or know they exist?

We always have had.

 

[primmiemoo]

No doubt statistics could prove certain things. Different races have different strengths and qualities and clearly we are not all the same . Accept that and make it work together but don’t pretend we are all the same.

We are all the same.

Perceived differences only come about by prevailing nutritional and educational environment.

 

[arcobob]

Darwin might not have agreed.

 

[primmiemoo]

Darwin might not have agreed.

Maybe, but the world moves on, and we learn more

 

[arcobob]

Statistics overwhelmingly support the view that certain groups of black athletes outperform white athletes from similar environments. Almost without question these high performing black athletes are of western African origin though they now reside in different countries and modern environments. They consistently have relatively shorter torsos but longer limbs than white athletes of similar height and this confers an advantage in sprint races because they have a higher centre of gravity.
How does this sit with your theory?

 

[caveman]

We are all the same.

Perceived differences only come about by prevailing nutritional and educational environment.

Surely. We all on a farming forum, being taken as stake holders in/or having a great interest in agriculture, must know from our own experiences, observations or learnings, that there are vast differences between sexes, strains or lines within species of all kinds, that give great advantages or present great challenges.
Why should we think that the human species should be any different?

 

[primmiemoo]

Statistics overwhelmingly support the view that certain groups of black athletes outperform white athletes from similar environments. Almost without question these high performing black athletes are of western African origin though they now reside in different countries and modern environments. They consistently have relatively shorter torsos but longer limbs than white athletes of similar height and this confers an advantage in sprint races because they have a higher centre of gravity.
How does this sit with your theory?

It's brilliant!

Some people run fast ?

Sports nutrition and training help the fast go faster.

 

[arcobob]

It's brilliant!

Some people run fast ?

Sports nutrition and training help the fast go faster.

So the fast go faster but who are the fast? According to you all people are the same other than those affected by different environmental and nutritional differences. The environmental differences have already been ruled out in the example I gave and most top athletes are subjected to similar nutritional regimes.

 

[primmiemoo]

So the fast go faster but who are the fast? According to you all people are the same other than those affected by different environmental and nutritional differences. The environmental differences have already been ruled out in the example I gave and most top athletes are subjected to similar nutritional regimes.

Hi, @arcobob , I think I have misunderstood some of the gist of your post that I responded to first, sorry. There is a lot of physical adaptation to environment in humankind (Darwinian), yes, that's the case.
I know someone who displays an ancient adaptation - the hunter's reflex (his hands never chill in cold water because of it) - that I don't have. I'm useless at altitude, yet some people have the right sort of blood to battle effects of altitude sickness.

My misunderstanding was because of the context of this thread - one D. Cummings - and having followed Cummings's cunning plan to bring in a Mr Sabisky to advise HMGovt - whose unexplained, unretracted communications in social media show him to appear to hold racist views. I was worried about thread drift.

[Edited to correct spelling of a name.]

 

[arcobob]

Hi, @arcobob , I think I have misunderstood some of the gist of your post that I responded to first, sorry. There is a lot of physical adaptation to environment in humankind (Darwinian), yes, that's the case.
I know someone who displays an ancient adaptation - the hunter's reflex (his hands never chill in cold water because of it) - that I don't have. I'm useless at altitude, yet some people have the right sort of blood to battle effects of altitude sickness.

My misunderstanding was because of the context of this thread - one D. Cummings - and having followed Cummings's cunning plan to bring in a Mr Sabinsky to advise HMGovt - whose unexplained, unretracted communications in social media show him to appear to hold racist views. I was worried about thread drift.

I am beginning to understand your predicament but to make bland statements such as "we are all the same" begs many questions. I was beginning to wonder if lack of visual acuity was a feature of the entire human race or just a feature of Devonians! I am not sure whether it was Darwin or another observer of animal development but it was postulated that displayed characteristics were influenced both by genetic variation and environmental influences in roughly equal measure. In any case they were both important. I have long thought that some government policies have inadvertently influenced genetic engineering. Your comments would be appreciated.

 

[primmiemoo]

I am beginning to understand your predicament but to make bland statements such as "we are all the same" begs many questions. I was beginning to wonder if lack of visual acuity was a feature of the entire human race or just a feature of Devonians! I am not sure whether it was Darwin or another observer of animal development but it was postulated that displayed characteristics were influenced both by genetic variation and environmental influences in roughly equal measure. In any case they were both important. I have long thought that some government policies have inadvertently influenced genetic engineering. Your comments would be appreciated.

<< I was beginning to wonder if lack of visual acuity was a feature of the entire human race or just a feature of Devonians! >>

What cheek! ?


<< ... some government policies have inadvertently influenced genetic engineering. >>

It's not something I have thought of, tbh. Off the top of my head, though, there's a possible triggering of epigenetics via removal of school playing areas while at around the same time removing the requirements for good nutrition in school meals.
It's known that lack of exercise and poor nutrition brings about obesity, and that has potentially generational consequences.

 

[arcobob]

<< I was beginning to wonder if lack of visual acuity was a feature of the entire human race or just a feature of Devonians! >>

What cheek! ?


<< ... some government policies have inadvertently influenced genetic engineering. >>

It's not something I have thought of, tbh. Off the top of my head, though, there's a possible triggering of epigenetics via removal of school playing areas while at around the same time removing the requirements for good nutrition in school meals.
It's known that lack of exercise and poor nutrition brings about obesity, and that has potentially generational consequences.

We at least find common ground on the basis of some of Stabinsky`s comments. They may sound racist and not PC but because they may cause offense does not mean that they should be dismissed. I do not agree with genetic engineering of the human race. The Nazis set about it in an abhorrent manner and were rightly condemned for it but a number of government initiatives in the past have, perhaps unwittingly, been guilty of passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity.
Epigenetics and deliberate alteration of DNA is perhaps as sinister as the actions of the Nazis. Altering it by causing a deleterious affect on lifestyle and behaviour is seriously careless.

 

[fudge]

We at least find common ground on the basis of some of Stabinsky`s comments. They may sound racist and not PC but because they may cause offense does not mean that they should be dismissed. I do not agree with genetic engineering of the human race. The Nazis set about it in an abhorrent manner and were rightly condemned for it but a number of government initiatives in the past have, perhaps unwittingly, been guilty of passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity.
Epigenetics and deliberate alteration of DNA is perhaps as sinister as the actions of the Nazis. Altering it by causing a deleterious affect on lifestyle and behaviour is seriously careless.

You should explain what you mean by “passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity”. I don’t think what you say is grounded in reality because there is more genetic diversity within “races” than between “races”.

 

[arcobob]

<< I was beginning to wonder if lack of visual acuity was a feature of the entire human race or just a feature of Devonians! >>

What cheek! ?


<< ... some government policies have inadvertently influenced genetic engineering. >>

It's not something I have thought of, tbh. Off the top of my head, though, there's a possible triggering of epigenetics via removal of school playing areas while at around the same time removing the requirements for good nutrition in school meals.
It's known that lack of exercise and poor nutrition brings about obesity, and that has potentially generational consequences.

We at least find common ground on the basis of some of Stabinsky`s comments. They may sound racist and not PC but because they may cause offense does not mean that they should be dismissed. I do not agree with genetic engineering of the human race. The Nazis set about it in an abhorrent manner and were rightly condemned for it but a number of government initiatives in the past have, perhaps unwittingly, been guilty of passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity.
Epigenetics and deliberate alteration of DNA is perhaps as sinister as the actions of the Nazis. Altering it by causing a deleterious affect on lifestyle and behaviour is seriously careless.

You should explain what you mean by “passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity”. I don’t think what you say is grounded in reality because there is more genetic diversity within “races” than between “races”.

I agree. I am talking about bio diversity within communities within races. We are all different, even on an individual level but if you give incentive for certain members of the population to produce more offspring than others the overall balance changes.

 

[primmiemoo]

We at least find common ground on the basis of some of Stabinsky`s comments. They may sound racist and not PC but because they may cause offense does not mean that they should be dismissed. I do not agree with genetic engineering of the human race. The Nazis set about it in an abhorrent manner and were rightly condemned for it but a number of government initiatives in the past have, perhaps unwittingly, been guilty of passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity.
Epigenetics and deliberate alteration of DNA is perhaps as sinister as the actions of the Nazis. Altering it by causing a deleterious affect on lifestyle and behaviour is seriously careless.

My way of thinking is that the potential for the obesity related epigenetics I mentioned above comes from unintentional consequences and coincidences. By addressing errors of judgement - let's say those brought about by applying market forces to social spending, added to the outcomes of government austerity measures - the situation can be recovered, with good support given to those who might continue to be affected.

Out of interest, does your disagreement with genetic engineering extend to gene therapies?

It's a delicate subject with me, on account of an illness that killed a close family member. There are two forms: one hereditary; one random.

Would it be that wrong to alter any of the genes that perpetuate the hereditary form to halt its cascade through the generations?

Would it be that wrong to use stem cell therapy, or similar, to halt the random form and prevent suffering in the individual affected? There is suffering involved.

 

[arcobob]

I have mixed feelings about gene therapies because they can be used for both good and evil depending on who is demanding them and who is regulating their use. There are a long running debates about early termination of pregnancy and euthanasia. Not quite the same thing but not far removed. In these cases the primary objective is clear cut though not always the underlying motive.
Over the years many attempts have been made to limit population growth. One attempt revolved around the issue of free condoms. I have no idea how successful that was nor the unexpected consequences. This is an example of a government initiative to change the course of nature. Is it possible that subsequent populations had an increasing level of rubber allergy? This may sound far fetched but is it possible?

 

[primmiemoo]

I have mixed feelings about gene therapies because they can be used for both good and evil depending on who is demanding them and who is regulating their use. There are a long running debates about early termination of pregnancy and euthanasia. Not quite the same thing but not far removed. In these cases the primary objective is clear cut though not always the underlying motive.
Over the years many attempts have been made to limit population growth. One attempt revolved around the issue of free condoms. I have no idea how successful that was nor the unexpected consequences. This is an example of a government initiative to change the course of nature. Is it possible that subsequent populations had an increasing level of rubber allergy? This may sound far fetched but is it possible?

Well, um, any rubber allergy would make itself known, I daresay. Maybe it could lead to something more Lamarckian than Darwinian, who knows? ?

Going back to gene therapy, it's already providing such benefit, and bringing about reduction of suffering. I read about a gene therapy that is halting the progress of an inherited eye-disorder which causes blindness. It is available via the NHS - which is amazing.

Most seek to do good with such astonishing developments.

 

[Danllan]

You should explain what you mean by “passively manipulating trends in the balance of genetic diversity”. I don’t think what you say is grounded in reality because there is more genetic diversity within “races” than between “races”.

I'm happy to be corrected and pointed to evidence supporting such a correction, but my understanding is that what you've written doesn't tell the whole story. If you were to set black Africans and their descendants aside, you're right; but there is, genetically, a massive divide between the 'races' from within and without Africa.

Relatively speaking, there is virtually nothing between Caucasoids and Mongoloids when compared to the differences between them and Negroids. Not saying there is not a great deal of difference within a 'race', most people don't know that Australian Aboriginals are Caucasoids like us in Northern Europe, although they are Archaic Caucasoids.