Deja vu, again...

[Danllan]

Prior to the 1975 referendum Peter Shore, a Labour Minister, gave a superb summing up of the case that the 'Yes' (to the EEC) side had made. Below is a link to his finale, but the whole of his effort is worth watching.

Immediately before this part of his speech, Mr Shore had taken apart his opponents' case piece by piece and successfully revealed it all to be untrue or improbable (with hindsight we now know just how right he was).

Regardless of one's choice in the 2016 referendum, I think we may agree that the quality of debate is, generally, not now of the former standard.

 

[czechmate]

Prior to the 1975 referendum Peter Shore, a Labour Minister, gave a superb summing up of the case that the 'Yes' (to the EEC) side had made. Below is a link to his finale, but the whole of his effort is worth watching.

Immediately before this part of his speech, Mr Shore had taken apart his opponents' case piece by piece and successfully revealed it all to be untrue or improbable (with hindsight we now know just how right he was).

Regardless of one's choice in the 2016 referendum, I think we may agree that the quality of debate is, generally, not now of the former standard.

Why is that? I do wonder. The internet? But I think it was going down hill before www.
I wonder if you watched the Anthony Hopkins link (on 1984)? I did, having watched it in 1989. I was surprised how slow it is by comparison to today's programs. Long times scanning scenery with no action. Totally different to today's programs that are non stop, at you all the time. Has our attention span gone? It's like debate has gone the same, flash sound bites for tiny attention?
Or I'm just about ready to become an old miserable barsteward

 

[rob1]

Why is that? I do wonder. The internet? But I think it was going down hill before www.
I wonder if you watched the Anthony Hopkins link (on 1984)? I did, having watched it in 1989. I was surprised how slow it is by comparison to today's programs. Long times scanning scenery with no action. Totally different to today's programs that are non stop, at you all the time. Has our attention span gone? It's like debate has gone the same, flash sound bites for tiny attention?
Or I'm just about ready to become an old miserable barsteward

I think its down to the PC culture, no one dare say anything controversial or they get torn to shreds by the media representing all those offended by whatever was said. The NHS is a point in question90% of those that work in it say it cant carry on as it is yet any politican who says it is cast to the wolves, try to cut the welfare budget and out coms some one who is poorly and lost their benefit and the gov is called to account etc etc

 

[czechmate]

I think its down to the PC culture, no one dare say anything controversial or they get torn to shreds by the media representing all those offended by whatever was said. The NHS is a point in question90% of those that work in it say it cant carry on as it is yet any politican who says it is cast to the wolves, try to cut the welfare budget and out coms some one who is poorly and lost their benefit and the gov is called to account etc etc

Hmm, I don't see how that effects debate?

Sorry but back to my point, as I've been thinking more about it...
Take question time. It used to be a steady debating program. I can't remember the previous guys name (Old, miserable AND senile) but he kept it ticking nicely, only 4 on the panel and occasional contributions from the floor.
I try watching sometimes now, but it find it almost unwatchable, so many on the panel, no one allowed more than a minute so they just have to grab for instant soundbites...

 

[rob1]

Hmm, I don't see how that effects debate?

Sorry but back to my point, as I've been thinking more about it...
Take question time. It used to be a steady debating program. I can't remember the previous guys name (Old, miserable AND senile) but he kept it ticking nicely, only 4 on the panel and occasional contributions from the floor.
I try watching sometimes now, but it find it almost unwatchable, so many on the panel, no one allowed more than a minute so they just have to grab for instant soundbites...

That is the point, easy going non controversial soundbite no real debate on serious subjects

 

[czechmate]

Can you say déjà vu, again?
It's like... Again, again?

 

[Ashtree]

Prior to the 1975 referendum Peter Shore, a Labour Minister, gave a superb summing up of the case that the 'Yes' (to the EEC) side had made. Below is a link to his finale, but the whole of his effort is worth watching.

Immediately before this part of his speech, Mr Shore had taken apart his opponents' case piece by piece and successfully revealed it all to be untrue or improbable (with hindsight we now know just how right he was).

Regardless of one's choice in the 2016 referendum, I think we may agree that the quality of debate is, generally, not now of the former standard.

He speaks passionately about the plight of Britain which generations of Englishmen established as it were!!! Englishmen if I might remind you! Not British men. Hey ho, so this anti Europe thing was no different then than now. An English thing. English nationalism seems to manifest itself in numerous ways. Wealthy silver spoon Toffs at one end worried about their impending status of lesser significance in the grand scheme of things in a European context. At the other end of the spectrum English football hooligans who like to thrash nice European cities when they get the chance.

 

[RobFZS]

The debate is shite because the press only reports on what sells, no one wants to read about the intricacies of being a 3rd country and rules of origin laws, so they stick to the drama about what Boris and the other clowns are going on about.

You could say Brexit only occurred because of the BBC's obsession with reporting every little bit of news to fill it's 24hour news slots, and thus Farage got more air time, they love it, brexit is the gift that keeps on giving

 

[baabaa]

He speaks passionately about the plight of Britain which generations of Englishmen established as it were!!! Englishmen if I might remind you! Not British men. Hey ho, so this anti Europe thing was no different then than now. An English thing. English nationalism seems to manifest itself in numerous ways. Wealthy silver spoon Toffs at one end worried about their impending status of lesser significance in the grand scheme of things in a European context. At the other end of the spectrum English football hooligans who like to thrash nice European cities when they get the chance.

and irelands plight?
http://www.independent.ie/videos/en...ssues-facing-ireland-today-36154645.html#play

 

[Danllan]

He speaks passionately about the plight of Britain which generations of Englishmen established as it were!!! Englishmen if I might remind you! Not British men. Hey ho, so this anti Europe thing was no different then than now. An English thing. English nationalism seems to manifest itself in numerous ways. Wealthy silver spoon Toffs at one end worried about their impending status of lesser significance in the grand scheme of things in a European context. At the other end of the spectrum English football hooligans who like to thrash nice European cities when they get the chance.

Tut! Now you're just sounding like (a) Wally... .

Can you say déjà vu, again?
It's like... Again, again?

Glad you spotted it .

 

[Henarar]

and irelands plight?
http://www.independent.ie/videos/en...ssues-facing-ireland-today-36154645.html#play

Tell me, are you and Mr Tree best buddy's when not on TFF ?

 

[fudge]

The whole Brexit thing is like groundhog day, shambles follows shambles. UK politicians have grown use to scapegoating the EU for our own troubles. Now we are leaving, guess what, the problems remain.

 

[Danllan]

The whole Brexit thing is like groundhog day, shambles follows shambles. UK politicians have grown use to scapegoating the EU for our own troubles. Now we are leaving, guess what, the problems remain.

Are you honestly going to tell us that you think the EU (i.e. the EC) are being reasonable, or even rational?

We have given many hundreds of billions of Pounds to them, and they want more? We are asking for nothing more than what the EU has agreed with Japan or Canada, and yet they say no. And all this despite us being a bigger trading partner and closer 'friend'. No, no, no, they want to punish us for leaving, but much, much more than that they want to frighten others into staying.

Remember the 'two year period' was specified by the EU, perhaps without the belief that it would ever be needed. It could be extended or shortened if desired, they do not desire to, and they do not negotiate, they demand. From start to finish the EU have shown nothing but resentment when its 'project' is in any way hampered or questioned. Remember the Irish referendum do you, and what the EC and MEPs said about that?

I have friends who voted to remain and - to my surprise - who still want us to remain in the EU, but are honest enough to say that the EU is being both unreasonable and irrational in their demands. Every country has 'troubles' now and then, so what? Our current ones are being massively over-stated and hyped up, principally by sore losers in the remain camp, also by our detractors abroad, so what? We have broad shoulders and will be fine.

 

[fudge]

It's a shambles. Surely if the EU is being unreasonable the thing to do is walk. What's the problem?

 

[Danllan]

It's a shambles. Surely if the EU is being unreasonable the thing to do is walk. What's the problem?

Your absence of support for the EU's position and actions is noted.

I agree that to walk away and leave it to WTO rules would be the best thing to do at the moment; when German workers - and others - start to express their concerns the EU may start being reasonable and rational. But, bearing in mind their principal aim - to scare others into remaining within the EU - this is by no means certain. In any case we know that the net cost of WTO tariffs will still be far less than the cost of EU membership.

The 'problem' lies with those in Government, sadly, and elsewhere who don't seem to want to admit that the UK is leaving the EU; quite revolting examples of doing their own county wrong.

 

[fudge]

The government don't want to acknowledge leaving the EU has a cost as well as benefits. The leave campaign presented a cake and eat scenario which was dishonest.

 

[Danllan]

The government don't want to acknowledge leaving the EU has a cost as well as benefits. The leave campaign presented a cake and eat scenario which was dishonest.

Not good enough, too one-sided, Remain tried to win Project Fear with lies and absurd predictions, they failed. This is about the 'negotiations' as ongoing now; we want free trade and no 'shared' sovereignty, just like Japan, Canada, Australia etc., the EU want to restrict our sovereignty and for us to pay them to trade, unlike Japan, Canada, Australia etc., how are we being unreasonable?

 

[RobFZS]

The whole Brexit thing is like groundhog day, shambles follows shambles. UK politicians have grown use to scapegoating the EU for our own troubles. Now we are leaving, guess what, the problems remain.

There will be a culture change, or we will have Mr Corbyn in power, the tories are slowly realizing this, the only issue is, to fill the 24hr news cycle, the bbc etc focus on the extremes of either side when the government leaves a empty space on whats going on in the talks

 

[czechmate]

Tut! Now you're just sounding like (a) Wally... .

Glad you spotted it .

Sort of a multi cultural stutter

 

[Danllan]

Sort of a multi cultural stutter

Have we been here before?